Epilobium and Saw Palmetto

   
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TrelosEllinas

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April 10, 2010, 09:37 PM

I was just wondering if anyone knows a good website where I can find epilobium pills(if they exist) and saw palmetto.

Can I use those at the same time?

Also, I am currently taking curcumin 95, resveratol and msm.

Would it create any side-effects if I get anthing else plus epilobium and/or saw palmetto?


TrellosEllinas

 

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Nidhogge

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# 1 ]

April 11, 2010, 02:35 PM

Trellos,

Please read my wikipedia entry on “Natural DHT Inhibition”:

http://www.worldhairloss.org/index.php/wiki/Natural_DHT_Inhibition

I recommend Epilobium, but not Saw Palmetto.  With Epilobium, it’s usually a liquid extract (which is more concentrated typically), and I personally use http://www.Epilobium.com  They. have an auto-ship program that gives 20% off.

 

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TrelosEllinas

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# 2 ]

April 12, 2010, 07:07 AM

Nidhogge,


I was doing some research on the net and I found this product:

http://www.hairsite2.com/trials/hormonazone.htm

How does it sound. Good or Should I just get the one that you showed me before?

TrellosEllinas

 

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Nidhogge

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April 12, 2010, 11:47 AM

Trelos,

I have a feeling, based off of the ingredients and what I know about some of those ingredients, that it will indeed do as it claims (increasing libido and the other stuff), but usually when you get those sort of positives it often accompanies hair loss as well.  I could be wrong here, but it just has a lot of different stuff in there.  If you’re strictly looking for anti-DHT, then the product I recommended would work well since it’s what I’d considered to be somewhat tried and true.  This new one, however, looks interesting and may be worth a spin, particularly if you’re looking for the other boosts that it would give your health as well.

 

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brh

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April 18, 2010, 10:57 AM

Nid do you know the ingrediendts that are in Prost MD?

 

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halfempty

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April 18, 2010, 12:46 PM

Nid do you still use that product with PM in it?

 

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Nidhogge

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April 18, 2010, 04:01 PM

brh—

Yep, got a bottle right here with me:

Servings Size:  15 drops

Epilobium Parviflorum (500mg)

Do this twice a day—I put it in my glass of water when I wake up, and with dinner.

We’ll be carrying a specialized hair loss version from Epilobium.com in the future, but for now, this still works great and is what I’m using.

 

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Runz

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April 18, 2010, 11:55 PM

Nidhodge,

Have you noticed any results with Epilobium?

 

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Nidhogge

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April 19, 2010, 06:34 AM

Runz—

Honestly, seems like my fallout is a lot more under control.  DHT has always been my main culprit, in conjunction with I believe Thyroid, though I’ve never gotten that tested (just noticed more energy and alertness when I began supplementing with Iodine, dragging a lot less, etc.).  The anti-inflammatory and COX-2 inhibitor components of Epilobium are great to attack hair loss on a few other angles as well.

 

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J87

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April 26, 2010, 01:39 PM

I found this site, looks like it might be a little cheaper than epilobium.com http://www.swedishbittersherbs.com/catalog/small-flowered-willow-herb-extract.html

 

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Nidhogge

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April 26, 2010, 07:46 PM

J87—

Usually, when something is significantly cheaper like that, it’s also cheaper in quality.  Few things to question is if it’s organic and is it utilizing all of the parts of Epilobium Parviflorum (which is a more expensive process).

 

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Gibson

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April 26, 2010, 10:02 PM

I can vouch for this one:
http://www.iherb.com/MRM-ProLobium-for-Prostate-Health-1-fl-oz/15127?at=0
Just ordered two more bottles.

 

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Nidhogge

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April 26, 2010, 10:30 PM

If I recall correctly, ProLobium *is* Epilobium.com’s product, just relabeled and sold by another company.  However and again this is if I’m not getting confused, the ProLobium folks violated their contractual agreement and are selling it for far less than they are legally allowed to.  If that’s the case, then I’m not sure how much longer it’ll last—I’ll have to find out about this.

 

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Gibson

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April 26, 2010, 11:13 PM

This is entirely selfish: but at best, thanks to our posts, iherb will sell out and MRM will get busted, perhaps.  Just seems on many occasions that I posted about products, supply suddenly was short. Nid, all said, I don’t know, the product seems relatively established with a user base.  Personally, I am using a ton of other stuff, including nettle root (now), Chrysin (mrm), etc.  But I did notice a boost since adding epilobium.  I think it is a very good recommendation.  Now let’s hope we haven’t shot each other in the foot by blabbing about it.

 

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Nidhogge

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April 26, 2010, 11:21 PM

iHerb should cut us a commission. wink  Seems that Chrysin has a bioavailability problem if taken regularly, but I think if you take it in a tincture or SEDDS formula you can realize some of its benefits.  But ya, let’s hope that we haven’t shot ourselves in the foot!  lol..

 

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brh

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April 27, 2010, 10:11 AM

I had already gotten a bottle of saw palmetto. When its done I will be switching to the Epilobium not sure which product yet. I take half the recommended dose of saw palmetto and I have noticed a definite shed. I have been taking it for a month now shed for 2 weeks thus far. Seems to have stopped recently.

 

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April 27, 2010, 02:52 PM

Here’s an update on Epilobium:

- Spoke with Bob, owner of Epilobium.com, and true enough he stated that ProLobium is his product and that is the last that you will see of that product as he cut the guy off that he was selling it to for violating the terms of his agreement.

- Bob is going to be doing a number of clinical studies for hair loss and what-not with his particular product, and has a special formula just for hair that we will carry in the near future.  He will soon be quadrupling the strength of it by making the tincture more potent.

Great guy, very trustworthy, and definitely knows his stuff.  He’s working on a great Epilobium-based herbal shampoo as well.

 

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brh

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April 27, 2010, 05:09 PM

Im not sure I like the fact that he is making it stronger. Isnt it doing similar things that propecia is doing. Wont we have more of the same symptoms that you will have with propecia the more potent it is?

 

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Nidhogge

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April 27, 2010, 10:00 PM

brh—

Quite the contrary, seems that epilobium works to inhibit DHT in such a way that we actually get increased libido.  Haven’t seen any sides in my studies at all from the stuff, or from what I’ve tried myself.

 

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Gibson

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April 28, 2010, 08:19 AM

Nid—Chrysin does seem to have bioavailability issues, which I was aware of before ordering.  I’ve gone through about 5 bottles and of the many aromatase inhibitors I have, it seems to be the weakest.  This I sort of liked as most give me hair fall, so I continued and thought perhaps it worked through a different mechanism.  In any case, I think I will drop it now.  Nettle root extract has been great for libido, and I think epilobium has brought the libido up even further.  Both may be similar, but I could be totally wrong about that.  The MRM epilobium seems to mix well with my Keto cream and be cosmetically wearable, so I may run with that for a while.  I also like the idea that the little alcohol may enhance penetration of the keto.

 

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brh

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April 28, 2010, 08:35 AM

How would you get an increased libido when inhibiting dht? Ive always been one to think there’s always a negative with a positive. Have you noticed any negative side effects at all? If not, it would be interesting to know how it works.

 

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Gibson

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April 28, 2010, 10:42 AM

I don’t think it as simple as DHT alone.  For instance, 7-HMR, an aromotase inhibitor, used to make my libido soar when used alone.  However, after trialing PM it wasn’t doing the trick.  After adding Nettle root extract, my libido was restored and, once again, 7-HMR had the same effect. Nettle root lowers SHBG.  These days, I am off of 7-hmr and am just trying nettle root and epilobium—still use maca, too.  I am far from an expert on this, but my point is, the endocrine system is complex and there is more at play than dht alone.

 

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Nidhogge

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April 28, 2010, 11:41 AM

brh—

Wish I could give you a straight answer there, but unfortunately, I’m not entirely sure.  Gibson kinda hit the nail on the head with his last statement.

 

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May 02, 2010, 09:10 AM

Do yall take the full recommended does of epilobium?

 

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Nidhogge

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May 02, 2010, 03:02 PM

15 drops in the morn prior to breakfast, 15 mins at night, prior to dinner.

 

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brh

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May 02, 2010, 05:50 PM

So you take the full recommended does nid? I was just thinking if you could have benefits at half the dose to make it stretch longer.

 

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Nidhogge

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May 02, 2010, 05:55 PM

Yep, go ahead and double it up or halve it if you want and experiment with what works best for you.  All of our bodies have unique and different needs so if you see one dosage not making much of a difference in hair fallout over a few months then you may want to up it or if you’re at a dosage that seems to be doing a fine job of keeping your hair loss at bay you may want to tinker with reducing it and see how that winds up working out for you.

 

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Gibson

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May 02, 2010, 08:11 PM

yep epilobium is out of stock on iherb.  i am so fucking pissed. fuck this.  sorry, but had to vent.

 

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Nidhogge

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May 02, 2010, 08:53 PM

Probably our fault man… wink

I don’t know if I brought this up already but I did confirm that it is the Epilobium.com product, and the owner (Bob) said that while he will sell to that company again, they won’t be allowed to sell JUST Epilobium.  Therefore, they’ll be selling a product with his Epilobium and an Estrogen-blocker that will retail for around $40 to $50.  He said they had to be making maybe a buck profit off of the iHerb sales! 

But ya, the $30 tag will be the minimum that you can get it for (minus the auto-ship program which gives 20% off).

 

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gonzalo

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May 03, 2010, 08:15 PM

Nidhogge,

I got epilobium in the way of herbs. Do you know something about the amount to be used to make infusions or decoctions?

 

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TrelosEllinas

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May 03, 2010, 10:43 PM

I just got 3 bottles of epilobium from epilobium.com.

I will start using it 2day after I get a reply of how many drops is the best to use for hair loss. Because I think u would need more if u had prostate….which I dont as I am 22.

and I am using MSM, curcumin 95, rerveratrol and vitamin d3-k2.

Will it be ok if I use it at the same time. Or would it b better to use it later on. And also how many drops and how many times a day should I use it.

Thanx in advance. grin

 

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Nidhogge

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May 04, 2010, 12:19 AM

I use 15 two times a day.  Try that out for a few months, and see how it works out for you, and increase/decrease as needed.

Gonzalo—

Making an effective tincture the quality of something like Epilobium.com that uses fresh plants that they organicly grow with bat guano (great fertilizer) and hydroponics would be worth far more trouble than it’s worth.  This is why we’re eventually going to sell their product with our label on this site as opposed to doing it ourselves; just too much trouble! smile

 

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TrelosEllinas

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May 04, 2010, 12:27 AM

thanx Nidhogge,


So can I still use it at the same time I am using the other things on my regimen that I included above?

 

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May 04, 2010, 12:38 AM

No problem Trelos and I can’t see why not—I take a good deal of supps per day and have taken many more as well.

 

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brh

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May 04, 2010, 04:22 PM

Vitacost had the MRM prolobium in stock that yall were talking about previously. I ordered 2 bottles. I think it was 30 dollars for both. Iherb was out of it a couple weeks ago i think. Just lettin yall know.

 

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SolitaireCloneInX

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May 13, 2010, 06:22 PM

I am currently taking Saw Palmetto, but once I finish off my supply I may look into Epilobium. Is it sold in stores at all, or should I look into online purchasing?

Also, for anyone taking it, can you tell a difference in its effects? I’ve only been taking Saw Palmetto for around 4-5 months and I haven’t noticed any major changes (good or bad) yet.


Some days you just can’t get rid of a bomb!

 

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brh

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May 14, 2010, 11:09 AM

The product that has been talked about I believe is online purchase only. Im finishing up my bottle of saw palmetto and going to move to the epilobium. Solitaire did you notice any sort of shed? Mine was similar to the one I had when I started propecia a few years back.

 

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brh

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May 14, 2010, 11:09 AM

The product that has been talked about I believe is online purchase only. Im finishing up my bottle of saw palmetto and going to move to the epilobium. Solitaire did you notice any sort of shed? Mine was similar to the one I had when I started propecia a few years back.

 

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SolitaireCloneInX

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May 14, 2010, 02:13 PM

I noticed a little “more than normal” shedding a couple months into taking Saw Palmetto, but the shedding itself has decreased quite a bit.

Does anyone know if there’s been any studies yet on Epilobium? I need to check out the Epilobium website that Nidhogge posted and check into that. If it does the same sort of DHT blocking as Finasteride (which I’ve never taken) and Saw Palmetto without the side effects, I would be very interested to try it.


Some days you just can’t get rid of a bomb!

 

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xyion1

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May 15, 2010, 04:10 PM

I tried to purchase ProLobium from Vitacost but it was out of stock (even though it said it WAS in stock).

And epilobium.com is down right now. Nid, maybe you can mail the owner and let him know his site isnt working?

 

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brh

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May 15, 2010, 05:31 PM

I received mine last week. they must have just run out. Now we have to pay the price for it.

 

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xyion1

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May 16, 2010, 08:02 PM

So Epilobium.com is down, but ProstMD.com is not.

From what I recall, ProstMD is where the Epilobium site linked to when you went to purchase correct?  I wanna make sure I’m getting the good stuff.

Also, does anyone know if there are issues with Epilobium raising estrogen? There are a couple threads saying basically “its not DHT, its estrogen” or something like that.

thanks.

 

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DM5

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June 28, 2010, 09:32 PM

-Xyion1

Actually Epilobium, as well as blocking Testosterone from converting to DHT,  is an Aromatase inhibitor.  This means it stops Testosterone from converting into Estrogen.  So you can theoretically get the benefits without the negative estrogen buildup that Propecia, Saw Palmetto and others can give you.  I am actually starting this now as well and definitely seeing some pro-androgen effects.


“A door within the fire creaks, suddenly flies open and a girl is standing there.  Eyes alight with glowing hair all that fancy paints as fair, she takes her fan and throws it in the Lion’s Den.”


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scottyc33

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# 43 ]

June 28, 2010, 11:09 PM

Nid - how long have you been using this?

 

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Mastery

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June 29, 2010, 05:58 AM

NId - can you provide an overview of, or references that can, of how the entire hormonal cascade works in the body and at what times during the day. I’d like to start to see the lniks between it all and why and how the hormones convert to what, where and why and when, as I wish to start exploring this in much greater detail now, as part of my consciousness links work. Also what did you think of Prague’s comments on JDP’s thread about RIFE?

 

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The Zix Creator

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June 29, 2010, 10:19 PM

DM5

Actually Epilobium, as well as blocking Testosterone from converting to DHT,  is an Aromatase inhibitor.  This means it stops Testosterone from converting into Estrogen.  So you can theoretically get the benefits without the negative estrogen buildup that Propecia, Saw Palmetto and others can give you.  I am actually starting this now as well and definitely seeing some pro-androgen effects.

This is very very interesting. I did not know this about this herb. Do you have any links to the study or studies that show this? I did a quick search and only found commercial sites talking about the studies but not the actual studies themselves.

 

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Mastery

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# 46 ]

June 29, 2010, 10:44 PM

Yes Zix, wouldn’t a non alcoholic liquid topical application, perhaps with penetrant (Emu? or jojoba) be of interest….

 

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DM5

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# 47 ]

June 29, 2010, 11:24 PM

-Zixcreator

 

“Inhibition of 5 alpha-reductase and aromatase by the ellagitannins oenothein A and oenothein B from Epilobium species.”

 


Planta Med 1997 Apr;63(2):111-4

Ducrey B, Marston A, Gohring S, Hartmann RW, Hostettmann K. (Institut de Pharmacognosie et Phytochimie, Universite de Lausanne, Switzerland.)

 

 

Species of the genus Epilobium (Onagraceae) have been investigated for their activity against 5 alpha-reductase and aromatase, two enzymes which are involved in the aetiology of benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH). Activity-guided fractionation has led to the identification of two macrocyclic ellagitannins, oenothein A (1) and oenothein B (2), as the main constituents responsible for the inhibition of the two enzymes. Quantitation of oenothein B in 10 different species of Epilobium has shown that amounts of up to 14% in the crude plant extracts are possible. PMID: 9140222 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

“Anti-inflammatory effects of a substance extracted from Epilobium angustifolium.”
Agents Actions 1988 Feb;23(1-2):106-7

Juan H, Sametz W, Hiermann A. (Institut fur experimentelle und klinische Pharmakologie, Universitat Graz, Austria.)

PMID: 3354371 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

“Determination of oenothein B as the active 5-alpha-reductase-inhibiting principle of the folk medicine Epilobium parviflorum.”
J Nat Prod 1996 May;59(5):490-2

Lesuisse D, Berjonneau J, Ciot C, Devaux P, Doucet B, Gourvest JF, Khemis B, Lang C, Legrand R, Lowinski M, Maquin P, Parent A, Schoot B, Teutsch G. (Centre de Recherche ROUSSEL UCLAF, Roumainville, France.)

Several extracts from Epilobium parviflorum, a plant used in Central Europe for the treatment of prostate disorders, were evaluated in a biochemical assay with 5-alpha-reductase. The aqueous extract displaying inhibition of the enzyme was analyzed, the fraction responsible for this activity was purified, and the active compound identified as a macrocyclic tannin, oenothein B (1). PMID: 8778238 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 


“A door within the fire creaks, suddenly flies open and a girl is standing there.  Eyes alight with glowing hair all that fancy paints as fair, she takes her fan and throws it in the Lion’s Den.”


Terrapin Station
The Grateful Dead


Put your lights on
Carlos Santana

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdEl8OlQlLc&featur;

 

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xyion1

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# 48 ]

July 05, 2010, 07:15 AM

DM5 - this is for the information.

Does anybody know any potential long term effects of DHT blocking?

I’m 28 and in good health so I don’t want to mess up my prostate by treating it for BPH when I don’t have it.

Also, are there any studies or anything on increased DHT sensitivity after taking these types of herbs long term? Anecdotal evidence?  Like if I took it for a year and stopped for a month or 2 would MORE hair be lost, like a minoxidil shed? Or just an increase to “normal” shedding amounts. Basically is epilobium like hitting pause then play, or pause then fast forward?

I guess that’s my next concern: ok, I’ve regrown a full NW0 (hypothetically)...now what?

 

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DM5

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# 49 ]

July 05, 2010, 12:26 PM

Xyion1-

As I understand it, longterm use of DHT-Blockers can potentially lead to an increase in Androgen receptors around the body when stopped.    Potentially increasing the chance for cancer.    Immortal Hair probably has a much better answer on this one.


Epilobium would be like hitting pause.  If you took a DHT-blocking substance for a year and then quit, your normal shedding would resume.  You would not be brought back hair-wise to where you started.  Minoxidil has the unfortunate effect of bringing you back to where you started minus any accrued loss that would have occurred.


“A door within the fire creaks, suddenly flies open and a girl is standing there.  Eyes alight with glowing hair all that fancy paints as fair, she takes her fan and throws it in the Lion’s Den.”


Terrapin Station
The Grateful Dead


Put your lights on
Carlos Santana

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdEl8OlQlLc&featur;

 

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xyion1

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July 05, 2010, 02:55 PM

DM5 - July 05, 2010, 12:26 PM

Xyion1-

As I understand it, longterm use of DHT-Blockers can potentially lead to an increase in Androgen receptors around the body when stopped.    Potentially increasing the chance for cancer.    Immortal Hair probably has a much better answer on this one.


Epilobium would be like hitting pause.  If you took a DHT-blocking substance for a year and then quit, your normal shedding would resume.  You would not be brought back hair-wise to where you started.  Minoxidil has the unfortunate effect of bringing you back to where you started minus any accrued loss that would have occurred.

Good to know DHT blockers won’t cause an accelerated shedding rate when & if I decide to stop.  I’m kind of hesitant to be on one companies product “for life”. I’d be nice to have alternatives and not go bald while transitioning over to something else.

 

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Nidhogge

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# 51 ]

July 08, 2010, 12:14 PM

Mastery—

That’s a bit too technical for me, Immortal could do a better job than I with that since hormones are his specialty.

Scottyc33—

I used Epilobium for a couple of months, but had to stop until I get some more money to throw around.

 

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Mastery

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# 52 ]

July 08, 2010, 11:43 PM

OK thanks Nid, appreciated. I must admit I am getting decent results when I take the time to really meditate. When I don’t and go back to being me (hopefully the old me), hmmn - that’s another story, as it can go pear shaped.

See what you think of this - the more I think about it, the more true it seems that everything is a vibration - an energy, and if you vibrate (feel) healthy (or replace with other positive emotional states - joy, peace, love, calmness, serenity, thoughtlessness) then health-full cells must result. Sounds simplistic but the more I think about it the more profound and all encompassing (and constantly challenging) it becomes.

Here is one person who has in my opinion reached Mastery. Note he is nearly 70 - great hair, huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5MZoQPz99M

 

IGNORE

bear101

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Total Posts: 55

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January 2010

# 53 ]

August 02, 2010, 11:18 AM

Some questions:

1) Anyone know the 1/2 life of epilobium?

2) Has anyone taken a blood test before and after starting epilobium to monitor the reduction in DHT?

3) Any notice of sexual side effects? (I know there isn’t really supposed to be any, but I want to see what people are experiencing)

I’m considering switching from finasteride due to severe side effects even at the lowest dosing and increased intervals of taking the drug…its not worth the risk in my opinion.

 

IGNORE

J87

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Total Posts: 75

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April 2010

# 54 ]

October 06, 2010, 01:28 AM

Has there ever been any discussion on internal bayberry? If it inhibits 90% of DHT topically wouldn’t it inhibit DHT internally as well?

 

IGNORE

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Mastery

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Total Posts: 234

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June 2010

# 55 ]

October 11, 2010, 11:57 PM

yes, that bayberry sounds interesting.

 

IGNORE

 
   
 








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