I cannot use lasers anymore..
 Member Total Posts: 25 Member Since: |
May 21, 2010, 04:12 PM because it seems to increase my lately unusual agressive scalp inflammation. For a year now lasers have been a great contributor to keeping inflammation at bay, but lately it seems only to agrevate the inflammation. After 10 minutes only, I have to take the helmet off because of the ithchiness and burning sensation. My scalp has lately been very DRY and itchy due to too much claying, and I bet this has got something to do with it. If I remember correctly, JDP once said something about lasering on a too dry scalp would not be wise. Have anyone had experiences similiar to mine. My hair has gone west lately too, so I would love to figure out what the problem is so I can go back to lasering again. Thanks, Socrates. |
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Editor Total Posts: 512 Member Since: |
[ # 1 ] May 21, 2010, 04:54 PM Sorry but I don’t know that much about lasering or about clay. That said as a general rule it’s not a bad idea sometimes to stop all treatment and give your scalp a rest. When it returns to normal start back on a regimen that is less aggressive. Perhaps using the clay less often. Just my humble opinion. |
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[ # 2 ] May 21, 2010, 08:10 PM Try using the clay on alternate day as oppose to using lasers right after claying on the same day. That might help. |
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Member Total Posts: 227 Member Since: |
[ # 3 ] May 21, 2010, 08:31 PM I would take a break for a week or so and use an oil like emu oil or even olive oil on your scalp nightly during that week off….something to help moisturize the skin…olive oil works well and is probably already in your house….then try again and see how things go |
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After 5 months of nothing, my new regimen as of mid December 2011 is below:
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 Editor Total Posts: 811 Member Since: |
[ # 4 ] May 21, 2010, 08:56 PM Socrates… Yes, in fact, both JDP and I had that EXACT same thing happen probably at the end of last summer/beginning of last fall! That, of course, would be CLAY INDUCED DRYNESS that resulted in a drop-off of results. It’s a shame that we didn’t have this forum up and running back then because I could easily point you right to those threads and how we worked it out. You are dead on the money saying that too much claying can dry out your scalp, and then that can cause problems with lasers. In fact, this is an EXTREMELY IMPORTANT TOPIC -whether clay is involved or not. In fact, I’ll go ahead and state: It is my opinion based on all of my knowledge that a SEVERELY DRY SCALP will NOT get results with lasers! PERIOD!
Here is my “artistic, not-to-scale rendering” of what a laser does when it penetrates normal, hydrated skin:
So, 650nm 5mW lasers ORDINARILY have their maximum deposit of energy somewhere around 4mm or so (somewhere around the depth of the follicle). Ok, that’s normal, hydrated skin. Well, what happens when it hits DRY SKIN? What I think is happening is this:
I feel that this is a big problem with some of the small percentage of people that don’t get results. I think MOST people with MPB have greasy, oily scalps -and maybe that has something to do with why laser success rates are pretty high. Your scalp doesn’t get “overly dry” no matter what crap you do to it. However, you start overusing something like clay with not enough protective oils in it (like a lot of us have done), and all of a sudden things go to crap. FIXING IT.Who cares about the theory. I’ve got to be right here -there isn’t any other explanation- so let’s move on to fixing it. First and foremost, do this… take a break from using both of them. You gotta hydrate that scalp!  Your scalp will eventually return to normal, but what I did was use Longview Farms Emu Oil. Any brand will work, but if you’ve been a part of forums for years, you’ll notice that all of us have emu brands that we support like football teams or something, and you won’t convince us to try others. lol… Emu oil is a very hyped-up product, but it does do some things pretty well -it penetrates like a mofu and it hydrates like a hook and ladder fire truck. I’ve tried lots and lots of oils, but nothing in my opinion works quite like emu to fix something like chronic dry scalp. TRY to wear that in your hair a couple of nights. It’s tough, but TRY -I personally can’t stand it in my hair, but I wore it every night for a couple of weeks.
Now, I personally find emu oil too thick to really spread thinly through my hair before I use my laser helmet. So, I mix it with either ethyl alcohol or organic lemon juice. Why those? Well, long story, and I’ll cover that some other time. The lemon juice idea came from Gaunitz, though.
Back to the point… I mix it about 50/50 (and I’m currently using lemon juice), it goes along way, and I personally feel MORE STIMULATION when I use it compared to when I don’t. I think that’s because I’m still going through a dryer-than-normal period. Actually, I’ve heard several people say that they ONLY feel stimulation when they use emu (or other oils), and now that I think about it and have a more educated perspective, these were probably people that would have had problems like we did with the clay if they hadn’t been using that. Ok, there are many, many ways you can fix the problem. Hydrating at night for a while -no matter what oil you use- will definitely help. Using an oil based pre-laser topical may help, too. Definitely, though… you should take a little break from this, especially the clay -and if you use clay again, you need to make sure it has a ton of oils in it or use a premade one (let’s face it… sometimes certain people/manufacturers can do things better than we can). Now, there is something else, too, but I want to save it. That’s actually swapping the clay for a while with a polysorbate 80 topical. I think I’ll make a thread about that sometime next week! Also, you can definitely go back to claying… but make sure to do it in moderation (once, twice a week at the most) and use PLENTY OF OILS IN IT! -O.M.G. |
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Editor Total Posts: 512 Member Since: |
[ # 5 ] May 21, 2010, 10:39 PM OMG how the F-ck do you put together such in depth and beautiful picture laden posts so quickly? Damn! |
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Member Total Posts: 25 Member Since: |
[ # 6 ] May 22, 2010, 03:07 AM Thanks so much for all advice people, I am very greatful ! What an awsome response OMG, ur legend! Thank you! OMG, what type of oils do you use to mix with your clay, emu / olive ? JoeZix - I ask you this because I know of your background within healthcare - I have been using topical bethametasone prescribed by doctor the last 3 weeks every other day - would it be wise to continue this ? |
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Editor Total Posts: 512 Member Since: |
[ # 7 ] May 22, 2010, 02:25 PM Hi socrates. Short term use of a steroid cream is fine. Long term these creams are believed to cause the skin to thin and this could end up leading to making the hair loss condition worse. This is long term use…months, years. In the short term though steroids are good for the scalp and hair growth. So for a couple of weeks this would be fine in my humble opinion. Short term treatment with steroids in general are a miracle treatment. Long term treatment they are really nasty thing. Sounds to me like you simply need to give up the clay and things should eventually get back to normal. Emu oil is great and you might consider something with glycerin in it. Glycerin literally sucks moisture out of the air and will deposit it into the skin. You can get glycerin at your local pharmacy. It’s cheap too. It also may already be in your steroid cream…read the label and see what’s in it. Then in my opinion there might be some logic in just stopping everything for a few weeks and let things get back to normal that way….except the steroid cream. |
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Member Total Posts: 25 Member Since: |
[ # 9 ] May 23, 2010, 03:59 AM Thnks Nid! Thanks for the great response JoeZix ! But I wonder, do I buy pure glycerin ? And do you think I should quit everything but the betamethasone for a while, including emu oil ? I have used emu overnight every night the last 3-4 weeks.. still.. the inflammation and dryness is present. Thanks! |
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Member Total Posts: 65 Member Since: |
[ # 10 ] May 23, 2010, 06:58 AM Try a different emu oil, some are definitely better than others. Don’t lather too much on either, a little goes a long way. |
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Editor Total Posts: 512 Member Since: |
[ # 11 ] May 23, 2010, 09:14 PM Hi Socrates. yes….in my opinion I think it’s best you temporarily quit everything but the steroid cream. Furthermore resist all temptation to touch, feel or rub your scalp except when applying the the steroid cream. Pick the most non drying shampoo you can find as well. Be as absolutely gentle to your scalp as possible. |
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Member Total Posts: 66 Member Since: |
[ # 13 ] May 24, 2010, 03:23 AM My scalp is extremely shiny, due to the fibrosis or whatever. It has changed the texture of my scalp, it isn’t due to oil and nothing I’ve tried can reduce the shine. I’m thinking this might be reflecting the laser light. |
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Editor Total Posts: 811 Member Since: |
[ # 14 ] May 24, 2010, 08:38 AM J87… Lasers can break down fibrosis -but it’s not a quick fix at all. Actually, it’s the S.O.D. that breaks down fibrosis, and lasers create it. There are probably other ways to help remove fibrosis, but lasers are the best way to do it with S.O.D. because topical S.O.D. has a very short shelf life, and gluSODin or any other pill form gets mostly lost in the digestion process. So, you’re probably using the exact right thing -it’s just going to take a longer time. I’ve always thought that one of the factors having to do with the SPEED of results has to due with levels of fibrosis. Obviously, the laser energy you get is going to have to go towards fighting that first. Fibrosis is one topic that I think we need to go into more. I think the anti-calcification drugs (K2, D3, etc.) have some anti-fibrotic properties as well, but this is something that needs to go in a new topic. Maybe a topical version of this used before LLLT would help -maybe not, it could block more of the energy, but no one has tried it yet. -O.M.G. |
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Build your own Laser Helmet | Laser Brush | Laser Device at OverMachoGrande.com! The internet’s first, best, and biggest consumer advocate site on laser therapy for hair loss! It’s time to educate yourself about one of the greatest treatments in FORUM HISTORY… |
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[ # 15 ] May 24, 2010, 09:29 AM I agree with replacing moisture back to the scalp. If what you use causes drying, which in turn causes itch and inflammatioin, it is important to restore that moisture. Emu oil is really great, but I personally prefer Sea Buckthorn and Aloe oils, so I blended the oils for the kit. Both are well known to heal the skin and reduce inflammation. Burdock (Arctium Lappa) has been a favorite medicinal herb for centuries. Burdock root oil extract, also called Bur oil, is used to promote healthy hair, to help relieve scalp irritation and improve scalp conditions. It is a natural hair oil applied to get rid of scalp itching, redness and dandruff, improve hair strength, shine and body. Traditionally Burdock root oil has been used to reduce and reverse hair thinning. Modern studies indicate that Burdock root oil extract is rich in phytosterols and essential fatty acids (including rare long chain EFAs), the nutrients required to maintain healthy scalp and promote natural hair growth. It combines immediate relieving effect with nutritional support of normal functions of sebaceous glands and hair follicles. Regular use of Burdock oil helps restore and maintain healthy scalp and hair. Aloe oil - healing and restorative properties of Aloe Vera are recognized since prehistoric times and utilized around the world. It has been used traditionally to treat various skin conditions, including psoriasis, eczema, inflammations, burns and wounds. Sea Buckthorn oil has multiple benefits in the area of restorative and anti-aging skin care. Natural antioxidants and essential fatty acids help reverse damaging effects of sun radiation and minimize long term effects of sun exposure, like wrinkles, dryness, dark spotsreduce skin inflammation, promote natural skin restorative processes. SBT oil has also shown to have DHT inhibitor properties. The oil is well tolerated by any type of skin and provide long term anti-inflammatory, restorative and revitalizing action. I’ll start a new post listing bennificail oils. |
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Member Total Posts: 25 Member Since: |
[ # 16 ] May 25, 2010, 11:05 AM Thanks so much ScalpSkinLady. I sometimes use Aloe Vera 98 %.. but you know what… it actually dries my skin.. I see this when I apply it to my face. It is very soothing and calming and everything, but its like its sucking all the moist out of my skin. Will try Seabuckthorn oil though, thanks for the tips |
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New Member Total Posts: 9 Member Since: |
[ # 17 ] May 26, 2010, 04:14 AM Hi Im slightly confused now! I thought the idea of using a pre shower topical (clay/polysorbate 80) was to remove sebum and oil and make laser penetration better- but then its now recommended to use an oil before lasering? My situation is that after washing with pretty much any shampoo my scalp goes quite dry and flaky but then after 12 hours it gets greasy again! Any advice on a good regimen? And whats the best way to incorporate super zix as well? Thanks for any help! Phil |
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Editor Total Posts: 811 Member Since: |
[ # 18 ] May 26, 2010, 09:43 AM Marty_McFly… You’re right… on both counts! We’ve always tried to separate that there are two different things… a pre-SHOWER topical and a pre-LASERING topical. I know it’s confusing, and I’m about six months late on the video that will explain this all very easily. Don’t worry… it’s literally third on my list of videos to do, and it would have been finished already if I didn’t have the computer problems that I had this month! Here is the important part, though: • EVERYONE should be using a pre-SHOWER topical. ...But I know your question, it’s:
Let’s do this… forget about lasers for a second and lets think about something that every single one of us can relate to: THE SUN.
Well, lasers are probably pretty similar. Not to such a drastic extent, but certainly things like your scalps sebum/oil behave similarly to the SPF 100… they can block most of the laser’s light energy from penetrating into your skin! Certain things like [certain types of] emu oil can do the equivalent of getting a BETTER AMOUNT of energy into your scalp (via refraction) similar to the guy using tanning oil in the sun -although don’t get me wrong, it’s not going to be THAT PROFOUND with lasers. I was trying to simply illustrate a point up there with that graphic. The difference here is that I don’t think there is a radically profound difference for most NORMAL people when they use a beneficial oil. I think with laser energy, you are like the guy with the SPF 100 if your scalp is dry, you have a sebum buildup, or you are using an oil that blocks the energy. You are the guy with the tan if your scalp is normally hydrated. So, that explains WHY you would want to possibly gunk up your scalp with beneficial oils: 2) BAD OILS -like the sebum, grease, and oil on an unclean scalp- BLOCK laser energy like sunblock would block the rays of the sun. 3) Some oils can cause you to get a more beneficial amount of energy into your scalp. Now, here is the problem… we really have no clue what is beneficial and what isn’t -or just how beneficial they can be. We are “babes in the woods” on this. We know that some of the great laser clinics use oil based pre-laser topicals, and we sometimes try to copy them. WE. KNOW. PRACTICALLY. NOTHING. -But hey, we’re pioneers! That’s par for the course. Let’s not forget the main point, though… you PROBABLY don’t need to put a pre-laser topical on your head unless you’ve found yourself with a chronically dry scalp as a result of over-claying or whatever. As far as your situation that you mentioned, though… that sort of sounds like an overall regimen solution -but I’m not the best to help you with that! Maybe someone else can! Oh, but you use SuperZix II every morning and night, and it doesn’t have anything to do with the laser treatment. You can put it on afterwards and it’d probably work a little better (increased bloodflow, etc.). -O.M.G. |
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New Member Total Posts: 9 Member Since: |
[ # 19 ] May 26, 2010, 03:32 PM Hey OMG You are indeed a living legend! Thanks for taking the time to put together such an involved reply. I think il go with a pre laser topical (probably polysorbate 80 as Ive got loads) and maybe some Emu oil (or other oil) as a pre laser topical and see how I get on. Il use the Superzix after all that. |
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Member Total Posts: 25 Member Since: |
[ # 20 ] July 08, 2010, 07:44 AM An update: I have been using emu oil religiously every day since this thread. I have left it on every single night. The inflammation and dryness is gone. Using bethametasone has also helped greatly. Still, I still cannot use my lasers. I get the same redness and hurting feeling after three minutes only like I used to earlier this spring. Observations I have made lately is that my scalp is a lot more shinier than it used to be. It is also harder. I believe an increase in fibrosis has appeared, due to the heavy inflammation I experienced. But the fact that this has happened over such a short period of time scares me.. it shows the importance of putting inflammation to an end in periods when it is aggressive, IMO/E. If this “layer” of fibrous tissue that appears to have emerged is reason that I cannot use my lasers anymore is uncertain to me, but my two cents tells me there is a correlation. Hopefully the fibrotic tissue that I now have will dissapear with time, and the scalp skin will normalise. I hope this to be true, after all, my scalp condition is now great with no itchiness and redness or inflammation of any kind that is noticeable to me. SuperZiX: I have now bought pure glycerol at the drugstore.. I understand this is the same as glycerin. Do I just pour it onto my head and let it sit for a while ? It also expires this month, I hope that doesnt do anything ? If anyone has any thoughts on how to reverse the fibrosis that has occured I will gladly listen . Thanks |
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[ # 21 ] July 08, 2010, 08:20 AM I associate the “sore or tired muscles” in the scalp with effective treatment….FOR ME, a light spritz of folligen before lasers followed by a heavy spritz after lasers gives me the most consistent effect. It’s not oil, but I think it works on the same concept of hydrating the scalp. |
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After 5 months of nothing, my new regimen as of mid December 2011 is below:
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Member Total Posts: 65 Member Since: |
[ # 22 ] July 08, 2010, 08:40 AM I know this is kind of a random call but have you tried doing scalp exercises? This has always been good for alleviating the effects of fibrosis for me but I don’t bring it up much because it always gets beaten down so heavily. |
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Member Total Posts: 25 Member Since: |
[ # 23 ] July 08, 2010, 09:06 AM MJ - thanks for advice, will look into it Joey - I am believer in scalp exercise. In PT friction massage is used to soften fibrous tissue after injury, I believe scalp exercises work according to the same principles. I do scalp exercises regularly, unfortunately they have not done much to the new fibrosis I have seen. |
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Member Total Posts: 65 Member Since: |
[ # 24 ] July 08, 2010, 09:29 AM Unlucky. How much time do you spend doing them? I have trouble keeping up with it cos it’s a pain in the arse. Thought about acupuncture? |
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Editor Total Posts: 811 Member Since: |
[ # 25 ] July 08, 2010, 09:45 AM Hey Socrates! Wow, I’m sorry to hear that! Before you completely banish yourself from the world of laser therapy, though, something just dawned on me. Do you think at all that it actually could be the LASER DIODES?? I’ll explain… When these laser diodes start to fail, they get freaking scortching hot. What reminded me of all this was that I had three experiences over the last two weeks with very old helmets in which I removed the diodes from them and put them into new helmets (including my original laser messiah!). Well, something happens when you move diodes that have been in place for two years… some of them don’t make it! I think the action of pulling them out, then straightening up their wires, etc. just pushes some over the edge. So, I lost about 11 of my original 254 diodes when I moved them to my new 400 diode helmet. Ok, but the thing is… I didn’t KNOW they were bad until I used it. It was EXTEMELY HOT under the helmet to the point that yeah, I could see how I might describe the feeling that you are. ....And they were all fine moments earlier before I moved them. So, I let the helmet run for another 20 minutes without me under it, and I then flipped it over and studied the hell out of each diode (eyes be damned!). Like I said, I found 11… and they don’t just “go dark”. They become little pin points of light, and the diodes become RED HOT. I actually burned my finger on one of them -that’s HOT. As soon as I replaced those, the whole damn helmet performed better -it was brighter, and much more than just 11 more diodes out of 400 would do. It wasn’t hot or irritating. Just to cover every base out there… have you examined your helmet like that? Do you think that there is a possibility at all that some of your diodes could be bad and it’s the blistering heat that’s causing this? Especially if you have older diodes (remember, there was a time when this was much more common, but the new diodes don’t seem to do this at all). I’ll put together a graphic in photoshop to show you what you are looking for. By the way, do you Skype? I haven’t turned my now-dedicated Skype computer on yet, but I will soon. If we have a video chat, it might save us a lot of time! I’m opening that up for everyone, by the way! You can skype me via my “OverMachoGrande” username, and if you go to my http://www.overmachogrande.com site, you’ll see a banner that shows my online status! -O.M.G. |
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Build your own Laser Helmet | Laser Brush | Laser Device at OverMachoGrande.com! The internet’s first, best, and biggest consumer advocate site on laser therapy for hair loss! It’s time to educate yourself about one of the greatest treatments in FORUM HISTORY… |
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Member Total Posts: 25 Member Since: |
[ # 26 ] July 08, 2010, 10:38 AM Joey - I do it a couple of minutes every night when applying emu oil. Acupuncture I have not thought about.. I find it hard to believe that it would reverse fibrosis.. (?) OMG - The thought has crossed my mind.. but.. the temperature of my diodes have not changed since I made the helmet one year ago. My diodes get “warm”, but I have been investigating this matter earlier and came to the conclusion with the help from forum members at regrowth that diodes becoming a little warm was normal, so no hot diodes here. About skyping, thanks so much for the offer, but I dont skype, and my slow running internet line would not agree with it either. I sure hope this is only a phase, and that my scalp, even though it appears to be hydrated, is not so hydrated after all. I guess if I went a couple of days without emu oil, my scalp would let me know. I am in fact going to try that, starting now. If my scalp is normally hydrated, it should do without, so we’ll see. Lasers has been such a “fountain of regrowth” for me, so I am not leaving the LLLT-world just yet. On IH one talks about using protelytic enzymes topically to bust up some fibrosis. Anyone have any experience with this ? Should I experiment with it, or stay away ? Thanks
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Editor Total Posts: 811 Member Since: |
[ # 27 ] July 08, 2010, 10:48 AM Socrates… Got ya… I hope it ends up correcting itself. If you ever want me to look at your device, by the way, you’re welcome to send it to me. Anyway, I’m going to go ahead and post this for the sake of the “class”! 
So, the method is simply to let your helmet run 20 minutes, flip the helmet over, orient each section of the helmet to line up dead on with your eyes, and move the helmet a little bit to make sure that they are all burning bright. Once you’ve identified it, you push it out the back of the helmet with something (pen, your finger, a screwdriver, whatever), and if you touch it… chances are it’s HOT. ...And just to clarify, you’ll know it when you see it. It may take you a while to spot it, but when you do… it’s unmistakable. Anyway, it’s a very rare thing nowadays (literally, we are talking one in every 5,000 diodes if even that), but things can definitely happen to make it so you have a “demon diode” (I like that!) -especially with the diodes that were made with the old circuit board design. Those things can literally burn you, and when you spot one, you need to clip it out immediately. One “Demon Diode” can really alter your experience. -O.M.G.
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Build your own Laser Helmet | Laser Brush | Laser Device at OverMachoGrande.com! The internet’s first, best, and biggest consumer advocate site on laser therapy for hair loss! It’s time to educate yourself about one of the greatest treatments in FORUM HISTORY… |
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Member Total Posts: 227 Member Since: |
[ # 28 ] July 08, 2010, 12:08 PM Socrates, Regarding the folligen, I think I’m the only one trying that out with LLLT right now…I will tell you that the first week I used it my scalp burned a little from the treatment, and with your irritated scalp that’s something to think about. Now I’m a month into it and I don’t notice any burning sensations anymore but I thought I should mention it. That being said, it is meant to heal irritated skin, so I think it’s worth checking out…the science behind folligen is similar to that of LLLT, plus it’s only like $25 for a two/three month supply |
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After 5 months of nothing, my new regimen as of mid December 2011 is below:
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 Editor Total Posts: 508 Member Since: |
[ # 29 ] July 08, 2010, 12:16 PM Right after applying the clay, wrap your head in ceram wrap. This will prevent it from drying out. After the clay, you may wish to apply Emu Oil or Avocado Oil on your scalp prior to lasering. Lasering on a damp and moist scalp is one of our recommendations. |
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Member Total Posts: 65 Member Since: |
[ # 30 ] July 23, 2010, 07:31 AM Socrates, don’t mean to flog a dead horse but with the scalp exercises you’ve got to be doing them in excess of about 15 minutes at a time, otherwise it’s similar to trying to get fit by running to your kitchen once a day. Probs doesn’t do any harm but won’t be doing you much good either. Normally I’ll throw some coconut oil on my forehead to prevent any lines showing up and keep them up for up to half an hour while browsing the net. Def always notice the difference the next day, hair looks better and scalp seems to have a lot more laxity. Just my 2 cents and I don’t expect anyone else to give this a go. Rock on. |
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