saw palmetto
 Member Total Posts: 35 Member Since: |
May 28, 2010, 12:23 PM hi |
 Editor Total Posts: 844 Member Since: |
[ # 1 ] May 28, 2010, 05:52 PM Hey, Fullyloaded! I want you to make sure that you are “at peace” with something VERY IMPORTANT first before we talk about this! • It takes many, many months for DHT Blockers to work. • The typical person will be MUCH LESS LIKELY to stick with a hair loss product for many, many months that costs only a few dollars that you can buy anywhere vs. an expensive one that is prescribed by a doctor and manufactured by a billion-dollar drug company. • Therefore, all practical, real-life comparisons (especially in forums) between Saw Palmetto and Finasteride are INHERENTLY FLAWED! People just don’t damn stick with something “unsexy”. -Remember that forever. I’m saying this right upfront so you’ll know that we really don’t have profound amounts of ACCURATE DATA on this -we have only what other people tell us. I have a feeling that if all of us started taking Saw Palmetto (or rather, beta-sitosterol [more on that later]), we would find out that it probably works as well as finasteride. Here is a fact… DHT blockers take a freaking LONG TIME to work -six months at a minimum, and more like 12 to 18 months in a lot of cases. So, it’s simple human nature here… you are MUCH MORE LIKELY to just completely drop the $10 bottle of Saw Palmetto after month five than you would your $70 doctor-prescribed Propecia after month five. Silly, huh! ...But true. Don’t know if you were around, but remember what happened with LLLT (and still happens). There was no practical data on this in the forums. Despite the fact that thousands and thousands of people all over the world were successfully going to laser clinics, there was an absolute INFORMATION VOID on LLLT in hair loss forums (I think for a reason, by the way!). It took US to actually get together, find out what worked, had a mass testing of it, and lo and behold it worked. We would have never have know this -or at least not until about 2020- if it wasn’t so unique and captivating that we finally were compelled into action. If Saw Palmetto wasn’t so “boring”, and if it wasn’t subject to a decade of disinformation, I think it would be common knowledge that the right kind could be at least as effective as finasteride. The “right kind” of Saw PalmettoOk, I said “right kind”, so let’s talk about that. I used to have some “official” information on this (link to studies, etc.), but this was years ago and I don’t have it anymore. So, you’re just going to have to trust that I’m remembering this correctly! There are some important things about saw palmetto that you need to know: 1) A few sources have identified that it’s not really the saw palmetto that is effective… it’s the BETA SITOSTEROL *in* the saw palmetto that is effective. 2) Saw Palmetto supplements VARY TREMENDOUSLY in their levels of Beta Sitosterol -even in the same bottle. Therefore, you are NOT getting a consistent level of the ingredient that works. So, one person might not be getting close to the correct amount of beta sitosterol where the guy next to him is -and they’ll have completely different experiences. Those two things together are probably the reasons why people have reported radically different findings. Studies on Saw Palmetto (and finasteride)Also, I have to mention that it’s hard to get good “official” information on this anyway because of the two main studies done on Saw Palmetto, one was done by a company that had interest in a Saw Palmetto product, and one was done by MERCK! You can guess what each one found. Now, the one with Merck -which was comparing Propecia to Saw Palmetto- was flawed tremendously (one of the reasons why I’m really starting to hate that company). Merck indeed correctly found that Saw Palmetto had no effect on serum DHT levels, while finasteride dropped DHT by 65%. So, they proclaimed that Propecia was the champion and that was the end of it. Oh, and Saw Palmetto became ridiculed by everyone with the status quo “follower mentality” online. I don’t even think that Merck “looked” at people’s heads in this study -and if they did, I wouldn’t believe it anyway based on Merck’s track record. They just looked at the numbers in the serum samples -not results. Different mechanism, dammit!So here it is: the problem is that this study assumed that the mechanisms of Saw Palmetto and Propecia were the same, when in fact they are different. It’s been shown that Saw Palmetto works instead by reducing the uptake of DHT at the receptor sites by a factor of 40%. So, while it’s not working the same way as Propecia, it’s still WORKING AS A DHT BLOCKER. There have been studies since then that have shown Saw Palmetto to be at least “as effective”, if not better -but you guessed it… these are never taken seriously. Merck/Propecia had an amazing strangle-hold on the internet world -especially hair loss forums- and only now is it finally starting to loosen. In fact, I dare say that things are looking PRETTY BAD with them hiding the true numbers of people that experience serious side effects. Let’s have this conversation again in about two or three more years, and I have a feeling that the average person will have a VERY DIFFERENT view of Propecia than they have had over the past 12 years! 2002 Beta Sitosterol StudyOk, so lets go back to Beta Sitosterol. There WAS a study done on Beta Sitosterol that was pretty well known. The trial participants were given 50mg of beta sitosterol a day for four months.
OBJECTIVES: The goal of this study was to test botanically derived 5AR inhibitors, specifically the liposterolic extract of Serenoa repens (LSESr) and beta-sitosterol, in the treatment of AGA. Subjects: Included in this study were males between the ages of 23 and 64 years of age, in good health, with mild to moderate AGA. RESULTS: The results of this pilot study showed a highly positive response to treatment. The blinded investigative staff assessment report showed that 60% of (6/10) study subjects dosed with the active study formulation were rated as improved at the final visit. CONCLUSIONS: This study establishes the effectiveness of naturally occurring 5AR inhibitors against AGA for the first time, and justifies the expansion to larger trials.
LESS side effects? ...And they are actually brave enough to say it?!Here is something very interesting, though, that was in the full version of this study (not the abstract):
So, that to me is showing that there is indeed a different mechanism going on -and one that both 1) might be “friendlier” to the hair loss sufferer, and 2) might show that it’d be more effective as a topical (targeting androgen receptors vs. serum DHT). Finally, if you look around you can find that beta sitosterol ALLEGEDLY also has estrogen blocking effects, ALLEGEDLY has a variety of anti-microbial, anti-bacterial, anti-viral and anti-fungal actions, and it’s ALLEGEDLY and anti-inflammatory. I don’t know if a bit of that is actually true (until my OMG site, everywhere used to say that lasers blocked DHT -which is WRONG!), so take all of that with a grain of salt! lol… Anyway, that’s my take on Saw Palmetto. It’d be better to go straight to the source and take Beta Sitosterol, and chances are that it’s at least comparable to finasteride -SEEMINGLY with less side effects. We definitely have heard side effects with Beta Sitosterol, though, but I don’t know if it was a low 50mg dosage or not. Beats me. Does Beta Sitosterol work better than Propecia?? I could stick my neck out on the line and guess that it probably works somewhat the same, and maybe even with less side effects because of the different mechanisms, but the truth is that NO ONE really knows for sure -and I hope I did a decent job of explaining why that is. As far as man boobs… no clue on that one. Someone else can help with that –I’m not even sure of what the causes of that are. Excess estrogen?? -O.M.G. |
|
Build your own Laser Helmet | Laser Brush | Laser Device at OverMachoGrande.com! The internet’s first, best, and biggest consumer advocate site on laser therapy for hair loss! It’s time to educate yourself about one of the greatest treatments in FORUM HISTORY… |
|
Member Total Posts: 35 Member Since: |
[ # 2 ] May 28, 2010, 06:24 PM O.M.G |
|
Editor Total Posts: 844 Member Since: |
[ # 3 ] May 28, 2010, 06:45 PM FYI… SuperZix II has topical beta sitosterol in it, and that’s probably a reason why it works so well. I’ve also started thinking and maybe the differing mechanisms are why topical FINASTERIDE formulas have been met with “ho hum” reviews, but SuperZix II users (the few of us out there that realized something doesn’t have to be “sexy” for it to work!) have success with it. Maybe the fact that beta sitosterol DHT inhibition occurs at the receptors makes it more viable in a topical, and maybe finesteride should stay in pill form. It’s all about WHERE they target the DHT. I’m just talking out of my ass here, though. I’m just a layman -true, I may be KING of the laymen and perfected it to an art, but I’m still a layman. lol… [Make no mistake… I am NOT a layman about lasers, though. By the way, we’re working on SuperZix with Bayberry to go into the official “World Hair Loss Regimen”, and I don’t know how Bayberry functions other than that it’s one of the most potent DHT blockers -but at least a topical natural DHT inhibitor will be featured in it. I’d like to see the bayberry mixed into the hairmuck (the part that contains the beta sitosterol) so we can use both, but I’ll have to ask Joe about that. -O.M.G. |
|
Build your own Laser Helmet | Laser Brush | Laser Device at OverMachoGrande.com! The internet’s first, best, and biggest consumer advocate site on laser therapy for hair loss! It’s time to educate yourself about one of the greatest treatments in FORUM HISTORY… |
]|
Editor Total Posts: 844 Member Since: |
[ # 4 ] May 28, 2010, 07:09 PM Oh, one more thing…
Nevermind the fact that it could be as effective as an FDA approved treatment… it’s just not new and exciting. It’s ridiculous that the world is that way, but hey… that’s the way it is. Like I said, if lasers weren’t OH MY GOD LASERS!, I doubt we would have done anything with it! Electromagnetic devices are pretty boring sounding, too, and since they’ve been around for a long time for other things, I don’t think people would pay attention to it much either -even though they’ve showed promising results for hair loss! I think I could make an electromagnetic device, make a thread about it at any forum -even this one- and it would get IGNORED -unless some people realized I did it (the same dude that did the laser helmets) and then there might be mild curiosity to see if I’ve lost my mind or not. However, if I made a thread that said “Sanofi-Adventis and Eli Lilly in joint venture to release pharmaceutical product for hair loss in 2015!” it would have the most hits of any thread ever seen. Or, if I put “New hormone identified TBeta-Frankenberry can treat hair loss”, you’d have 100 people trying it for six weeks -then quitting, and you wouldn’t hear about it again. I think people ASSUME that because they’ve heard of a treatment before, it’s been tried and tried and there is a consensus about it. Well, in Saw Palmetto’s case… it was a consensus put out by MERCK!!! OMFG! Polysorbate 80… probably works better than most things out there -same thing. It’s not “sexy”. A judge said “It’s the opinion of the scientific community that NOTHING grows hair”, everyone giggled because bald people are ok to be made fun of, and the Helsinki Formula (primary ingredient is Polysorbate 80) was shut down, and then all of a sudden Propecia appeared and everything non-Propecia/Minox was drummed out of the forums -including working things like Polysorbate 80. I wonder what that same judge would say now -especially since only a few years later FDA approvals for hair loss were issued. -O.M.G. |
|
Build your own Laser Helmet | Laser Brush | Laser Device at OverMachoGrande.com! The internet’s first, best, and biggest consumer advocate site on laser therapy for hair loss! It’s time to educate yourself about one of the greatest treatments in FORUM HISTORY… |
|
Member Total Posts: 84 Member Since: |
[ # 5 ] May 29, 2010, 08:58 AM OMG im beginning to question the effectiveness of epilobium compared to that of saw palmetto. I definitely have more inflamation after switching from saw palmetto to epilobium. I am however only taking 10 drops in the morning and ten at night instead of the recommended 15 drop. I was also only taking one saw palmetto pill a day compared to the recommended 2. The saw palmetto is much cheaper as well. 1 10 dollar bottle lasted 2 months. Just an fyi |
|
Member Total Posts: 35 Member Since: |
[ # 6 ] May 29, 2010, 10:33 AM should i take beta sitosterol topical or pill sorry guys im new to all of this lol |
.jpg) Member Total Posts: 191 Member Since: |
[ # 7 ] May 29, 2010, 10:59 AM Whether you choose topical or pill form its up to you. The Zix formula is good because you can get the benefits of beta-sis without the sides. The pill is effective but is likely to lower libido. |
|
“A door within the fire creaks, suddenly flies open and a girl is standing there. Eyes alight with glowing hair all that fancy paints as fair, she takes her fan and throws it in the Lion’s Den.”
|
|
Member Total Posts: 35 Member Since: |
[ # 8 ] May 29, 2010, 11:16 AM ok |
|
Editor Total Posts: 546 Member Since: |
[ # 9 ] May 29, 2010, 06:06 PM Great post on saw palmetto and beta sitosterol OMG. One point….and you did touch on this but to reiterate…..just because beta sitosterol works by a different mechanism than propecia (beta sitosterol is believed to block receptor sites for DHT) doesn’t mean it would necessarily have less side effects or different side effects from propecia. Blocking DHT receptor sites is effectively treating the condition the same way. With both compounds (propecia and beta sitosterol) DHT is reduced in the tissue. With one compound we reduce the amount of DHT. With the other compound we reduce how much DHT is uptaken by the tissue. Yet the results and side effects should be equivalent. Saw palmetto/ beta sitosterol however is a great thing to add to our topicals. When we apply the stuff topically we get the same benefits as if we take the stuff orally….. but we can use a tiny fraction of the dose we would need for it to work orally. That’s because the target cells (the follicles) are getting a healthy dose but the rest of the body is getting a very very tiny dose…...hence we derive the benefit without the side effects of taking it orally. Great points about saw palmetto and polysorbate 80 being boring. Just because something is boring doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. In my experience the old boring things often work better than the new exciting things. Great point about the POWER OF PRESCRIPTION MEDS! If a doctor tells people something works they will stick with it for months or years. With any other substance people will more than likely abandon using it long before it has a chance to work! |
|
Member Total Posts: 84 Member Since: |
[ # 10 ] May 29, 2010, 06:14 PM Zix how do you feel about the shampoo revivogen? Do you think you could have any real benefits from it. I guess I am asking do you think it has enough dht blocking ingredients and/or surface time to actually make a difference. Thanks |
|
Editor Total Posts: 546 Member Since: |
[ # 11 ] May 29, 2010, 06:43 PM I know I’ve heard a lot of positive input on how it makes their hair and scalp feel. As far as the ingredients being on the scalp long enough to make a difference, I must admit I really don’t know. I would tend to think not but I really don’t know. I can say the companies products have been a massive disappointment for hair loss sufferers. At least that has been my experience. They have alot of great ingedients but for some reason the product doesn’t seem to perform that well. Perhaps there is something in it that is incompatible? But again I’ve always heard the shampoo made people’s hair feel and look great. But as far as how well it works I haven’t ever heard anything good or bad about it. Sorry. |
 Member Total Posts: 81 Member Since: |
[ # 12 ] May 30, 2010, 03:30 PM Wow, I used to hate the FDA and pharmaceutical companies long before because of the tactics they use for other diseases/disorders, but now I F—-ING hate them! |
|
Sure, shit happens...but so does good shit! |
|
New Member Total Posts: 8 Member Since: |
[ # 13 ] May 30, 2010, 06:06 PM [The post below is spam. Please do not pay attention to it.] How’s it going guys, Jumping into your conversation about saw palmetto, as I’ve taken it for about 10 years. First I got to say I’ve have had really good results, but I think for the most part it depends on the severity of your balding. As I consider myself stage 2 now but was border line stage 3 when I started taking saw palmetto, I took it through [BLACKLISTED word/name/company removed automatically] for men and it did work. But I think you guys are totally right the results are not instant as the medicated stuff can, supposedly produce. For me it was worth the wait, as I didn’t mind regrowing hair naturally and sparing myself the side effects. Now as far as the severity issue, I think “over macho grande” is dead on by saying that the media has everyone convinced that the medicated stuff is your only option if you’re severly bald, as I was pretty bad and the natural stuff (saw palmetto)still worked for me, but I was not stage 4 or 5. All I’m saying is men who are that far along dont even consider the natural stuff as an option because the media has them brain washed that that stuff wont work for them, I say they should give it a try and figure it out for themselves, if it worked for me when I was going mildly bald why wouldn’t work for someone who is just at a more advanced state. Oh and I luckily havent grown any man boobs, lol, but I do work out a lot. This is the stuff I use, check out their site: URL regrow hair naturally |
|
New Member Total Posts: 8 Member Since: |
[ # 14 ] May 30, 2010, 06:24 PM Sorry I posted twice! |
|
Member Total Posts: 84 Member Since: |
[ # 15 ] May 30, 2010, 06:25 PM Thanks for the info. I was on saw palmetto for 2 months and went to something else. I actually took half the recommended does for prostate. The bottle was 10 dollars which lasts me 2 months. I thought the same thing OMG was talking about…its cheap it probably isnt doing much. So I switched to epilobium which was much more expensive. Im going to stick with it for a year and let yall know how it goes. |
 Editor Total Posts: 510 Member Since: |
[ # 16 ] May 30, 2010, 11:50 PM Please read our wiki entry on Natural DHT Inhibition for further info.! http://www.worldhairloss.org/index.php/wiki/Natural_DHT_Inhibition |
|
The RejuvePlex anti-aging / hair loss topical is finally… by Kazbar on 05/16/12, 8:21pm
|
|
|
|
|
SuperZix II - A Homemade Topical That Can Compete with… by marb on 04/27/12, 4:15am
|
|
|
|
|
SuperZix II - A Homemade Topical That Can Compete with… by The Zix Creator on 04/27/12, 2:39am
|
|
|
|
|
SuperZix II - A Homemade Topical That Can Compete with… by marb on 04/27/12, 2:15am
|
|
|
|
|
Pulsing Lasers with the Spectralight PulseDrive -Intro… by what_Baldness on 04/13/12, 7:20am
|
|
|
|
|
The RejuvePlex anti-aging / hair loss topical is finally… by Nidhogge on 01/11/12, 8:57pm
|
|
|
|
|
The RejuvePlex anti-aging / hair loss topical is finally… by dZine on 01/03/12, 5:53pm
|
|
|
|
|
The RejuvePlex anti-aging / hair loss topical is finally… by Immortal Hair on 12/12/11, 5:23pm
|
|
|
|
|
The RejuvePlex anti-aging / hair loss topical is finally… by OverMachoGrande on 12/12/11, 4:38pm
|
|
|
|
|
Estrogen, Aromatase & Insulin by Gregsmom48 on 12/01/11, 8:45am
|
|
|
