Laser Chin Device (LLLT for Fat Reduction) - Update 1
  Editor Total Posts: 502 Member Since: |
June 07, 2010, 10:56 PM
 If you remember, I made a laser chin device about three weeks ago that wraps around my head. The purpose of this, of course, is to try to help reduce the stubborn fat under my chin that never goes away. This isn’t just some CRAZY NOTION, it’s been well documented and they even offer it in clinics with very expensive devices. The problem is that we don’t know too many of the specifics, and similar to how we were starting out with laser therapy for hair loss, there isn’t a lot of info out there. I talk about it in this thread: http://www.worldhairloss.org/index.php/forums/viewthread/176/ In fact, if you don’t know what I’m talking about, look at that thread and it should answer your questions! There are even some videos and studies about it there. Mechanism(?)Speaking of questions, I’ve been trying to decide what the EXACT MECHANISM for fat reduction is. It’s doing one of two things:  It could be following the typical “window of energy” model -similar to how lasers work for hair loss.This means that as the tissue gets energy and the mitochondria is able to do what it normally does BETTER, and the fat deposits as a results of this are signaled to release a little bit more than they would be. This means that treatment should not exceed the typical 6 or 7 joules per centimeter dosage. -OR-  It could be following the “blood irradiation” model -which means that the more you do it, the better (within reason, though).This means that it would be behaving similarly to what the manufactures of devices for this purpose suggest (I don’t consider that necessarily valid, though… manufacturers often don’t know what they are talking about), and that it’s essentially “blasting the fat” by causing the fat cells’ walls to dissolve and the rest to be absorbed into the bloodstream (or whatever). This means that using it for extended periods of time would be better. Thinking OutloudSo, I have no idea which one is the way to do this, but several things have crossed my mind -and I could be wrong on every single one of them and I’m just thinking outloud: 1) It might take higher wattage diodes to do this correctly. Lasers have much different effects at higher wattages (50-100mW lasers can burn dvds!), and higher wattage diodes can harmful to tissue. Well, excuse me… but I think we WANT to damage the fat cells! lol… 3) FAT BLOCKS LLLT -big time! I can tell that the energy isn’t getting though my chin very far. This also leads me to think that higher wattage diodes may be necessary. When I do it for only 20 minutes, I don’t feel like I’ve done it AT ALL! It’s really amazing since I’m so used to being able to feel a lot of stimulation on my scalp. 2) If the mechanism is the typical “window of energy” model, I think this must only affect BIG FAT DEPOSIT areas. If your body is just working better than it should therefore signaling that it’s ok for fat cells to release, it seems like it’s only going to release those in the areas that are storing them. So, if you stick it on an area like your face or your legs or something that doesn’t typically store lots and lots of fat, you won’t get lots and lots of results. You stick it on your gut or love handles, then it will give better results. 3) I don’t know if under my chin is going to get results because my double chin isn’t a standard fat deposit. I have this damn thing when I’m thin. I’ve talked about this a lot in the forums, and maybe it’s hypothyroidism, maybe it’s something else, I don’t know. So, I’m not sure if doing this is going to actually do anything if it doesn’t go away when I’m actually thin and in shape! We’ll see…
Something really unexpectedBUT… the only reason I’m sharing this update is something very unexpected that I’ve noticed. I’ve been playing with the times I’ve been using it -most of the time I’ve been doing it for 20 minutes, but I’ve done it for FOURTY MINUTES for three sessions now, and at right about the 35 minute point…  ...it’s like Viagra. Man, my whole body starts flushing (like viagra does to you), and I do feel it where it counts! Now, this is no secret that LLLT can do this -we even know this from our trials because MANY MANY PEOPLE that use laser helmets notice that they have greater instances of “morning wood”. It’s simply the increased Nitrous Oxide in the bloodstream that does it. Anyone that’s ever experimented with blood irradiation I’m sure has noticed the flushing effect, and maybe even the viagra effect, but I’ve never had it so profound like that after 35 minutes under my chin. I wonder if there is something that’s going on -like I’m hitting some glands or stimulating something else that radically dumps N.O. into my bloodstream right about that point. So, I thought I’d share that with you and give you guys something to ponder! ...And yes, LLLT is a “natural cure” for some forms of errectile dysfunction -I think most people that have ever used a laser device won’t find that hard to fathom at all. You can read this: http://www.laser.nu/lllt/lllt_editorial11.htm to see just one of many studies, but this particular one is talking about DIRECT treatment of that area -and not just as a result of blood irradiation in the body. -O.M.G. |
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Editor Total Posts: 502 Member Since: |
[ # 2 ] June 09, 2010, 03:54 PM Phew… I’m just glad SOMEONE RESPONDED to this thread. Hardly anyone has even looked at it. I think it’s really exciting and important.  I think there is good evidence for a link between all three of these things in this picture on the left, and therefore I think finding something that treats a couple of them (or all of them) is groundbreaking. We’ve seen the studies on heart disease—> erectile disfunction, and we’ve seen the studies on heart disease—> hair loss. So, it wouldn’t surprise me that… I *love* the feeling of N.O. in the body, by the way. Every once and a while people will ask me if they have to continue using the laser helmet for the rest of their life. My response is always “You’ll want to.” -and that awesome N.O. feeling is part of the reason. -O.M.G. |
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 Editor Total Posts: 118 Member Since: |
[ # 3 ] June 09, 2010, 04:54 PM It’s summer what can I say, lol. Here’s another reason why you’d want to keep using it 2008: Kanno Yosuke; Into Takeshi; Lowenstein Charles J; Matsushita Kenji
rest of study = http://cardiovascres.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/77/1/221.pdf |
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Editor Total Posts: 118 Member Since: |
[ # 4 ] June 09, 2010, 04:57 PM Whenever I think of calcification I always think of this study To the Editor:\p=m-\Some questions concerning baldness which |
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[ # 5 ] June 16, 2010, 05:06 PM [Message restored by OMG’s email notification!] I usually lurk, but OMG’s post really really got me hooked. I have a laser 30 pre LLLT) and I am begining to see some regrowth. WooHOO. But this post is about OMGs Viagra reference. Anyways, about a month ago, I hurt my penis. I was having sex and I bent my
I don’t know if this is my body naturally healing or if the LLLT is
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Editor Total Posts: 118 Member Since: |
[ # 6 ] June 16, 2010, 06:13 PM WOW, I don’t know what happened. I don’t know if I’m a complete idiot for deleting part of your message when I tried quoting you or if it was some error going on in this forum. I very much apologize for deleting your question if it was in fact me JenniferRann. I’ll answer your question again though ... yes, 650 nm lasers can penetrate far enough and will definitely help with the condition you described. It should actually dramatically help and would recommend to keep up treatment to keep inflammation low otherwise may develop a curvature in penis No need to cover testicles though ... though will make you more likely to get girlfriend pregnant. Here is a good study
Again, sorry if that was in fact me where your message disappeared or if it was some glitch where your message disappeared when I posted. You can always make another post so others can comment. |
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[ # 7 ] June 16, 2010, 08:27 PM that is weird. no biggie. maybe a mod deleted due to content? This abstract kind of makes me nervous because it seems as if they used low exposure times. On the other hand, it is reassuring to know actual energy penetration is being achieved. Thankfully I don’t have Peyronie’s, but it is amazing what these cold lasers are capable of!
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Editor Total Posts: 502 Member Since: |
[ # 8 ] June 16, 2010, 08:54 PM  Ha ha ha! No mod would dare delete that or I’d hang them! I know what probably happened… Jdp (who indeed has “Hair Loss God” powers here), probably hit “edit” and not “quote” (or edited your post instead of his own on accident) when he was replying, and thought that was his own post or something. I don’t know, I’m just guessing because everything else would have had a big “ARE YOU SURE?” confirmation screen, and he would have caught that mistake. How do I know that’s what happened?? Because I accidentally did that once to someone! HOWEVER… because I’m a problem solver, I fixed it! I pulled the text from my email notification and stuck it back in. Now, let me actually READ IT, and then I’ll respond in a minute. -O.M.G. |
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Editor Total Posts: 502 Member Since: |
[ # 9 ] June 16, 2010, 09:27 PM Ok, don’t worry about those exposure times AT ALL. The reason they are so low in the abstract is because for deeper tissue injuries like that, they often use much higher powered diodes. Judging by the fact that they had 30mW diodes (six times higher powered than ours) but yet they only got three joules in 100 seconds, I’m guessing that they had to use PIN POINT diodes (not diffused):
Each footprint contains the same amount of energy! It’s concentrated in the pin point (left), but the diffused diode (right) spreads it out over a large area.
So, you using your device for 15-20 minutes is perfectly safe, and you probably aren’t even getting 3 joules if there is a big distance in between the diodes and your PENIS. Sorry, lol… I’ll never grow up! PENIS PENIS PENIS! Ha ha ha! You could more-than-likely very safely increase the time if you wanted -but it looks like you are doing just fine. Ok, here is a MAJOR POINT that I want to mention here… the researchers probably are less qualified to run laser experiments than JDP, myself, or any lurker in the forums. How do I know that? Because they would have compared them to all sorts of different dosages, wavelenghts, wattages, etc. for one thing. It always shocks me that there is just an obvious lack of consideration from most people running these studies that different wavelengths and wattages can have very different effects -even though the “end dosage” is the same. THAT is why we don’t have more laser data than we do! I would bet that double that dosage would have been better -just like everything else that shows that six joules is clearly better than three. Maybe they checked it out, but I’m doubting it. Plus, there seems to be evidence that red diodes are just frankly more “bioavailable” or something like that, and the energy gets absorbed better. The diodes they used are infrared -not red. They should have compared the two! Anyway, lol… I’m sorry. I do that sometimes. By the way, I know a guy that did what you did, and yeah… he was miserable, too. I think I’ve seen an animated gif on 4chan where a porn star had a blooper like that, too! I’m glad it’s helping! Man, if you hurt yourself in any way at all… use the lasers on it. Burns especially. Oh, I’m glad you are getting results with your hair, too! -O.M.G.
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Build your own Laser Helmet | Laser Brush | Laser Device at OverMachoGrande.com! The internet’s first, best, and biggest consumer advocate site on laser therapy for hair loss! It’s time to educate yourself about one of the greatest treatments in FORUM HISTORY… |
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Editor Total Posts: 502 Member Since: |
[ # 10 ] August 08, 2010, 05:05 PM I have a final update for this… I stopped using this device last month because I figured out that 5mW diodes CANNOT WORK FOR FAT LOSS. I looked into it and done a lot of thinking on my own figured out that the only way that fat reduction can really work is by really high powered (somewhat damaging) diodes -we are talking like 50-200mW, too. Depth is partially the reason, but it’s more than that. 5mW diodes do nothing but BENEFICIAL things to tissue… which is actually NOT WHAT WE WANT when we are trying to remove fat deposits! We want to actually blast some of the fat away by damaging the cell walls a bit, which enables the fat to be “flushed away”, out of your system. Higher powered diodes can HURT tissue -we have documented evidence that diodes OVER 5mW diodes can be poorly received by mammalian tissue. Well, lol… this is sort of what we want here. We don’t want to cause damage to the tissue by any means, but we want the laser energy to penetrate deeply with force enough to damage the fat cell walls. What I’m actually going to do is make a five diode device for spot treating things, and it’s going to have 150mW or 200mW diodes -very similar to the Thor Laser device used for deep tissue injury, etc. I’m going to use this under my chin, and I would actually expect this to have some effect! I still don’t know about times, etc. (is more energy better since I’m trying to “blast” fat?? ...or would the standard 3-6 joules be better? Don’t know…), so this is still a big mystery! So, this also answers the questions about whether or not using a laser face device would be a bad thing if it removed some of the necessary fat -the answer is NO, because 5mW diodes aren’t removing fat. They just can’t do it. So, that’s my final update for THIS device -I’m going to be trying that other one soon, though. -O.M.G. |
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[ # 11 ] August 10, 2010, 02:38 PM This is my first post….. LLLT for Fat loss is well documented. Lets not recreate the wheel, but rather use the research as a spring board to improve, if possible, the fat loss results. You would have to travel to a medical library to obtain the full text articles, but these tid bits should suffice: Transmission electron microscopic images have demonstrated the formation of transitory pores in adipocyte cell membranes followed by the collapse of adipose cells subsequent to laser irradiation of 635 nm. The objective is to evaluate the application of a 635 nm and 17.5 mW exit power per multiple diode laser for the application of non-invasive body contouring of the waist, hips, and thighs. STUDY DESIGN/PATIENTS AND METHODS: Double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trial of a 2-week non-invasive laser treatment conducted from May 2007 to June 2008 across multiple-private practice sites in the United States of America. Sixty-seven volunteers between the ages of 18-65 with a body mass index (BMI) between 25 and 30 kg/m(2) and who satisfied the set inclusion criteria participated. Eight of the 67 subjects did not have circumference measurements recorded at the 2-week post-procedure measurement point. Participants were randomly assigned to receive low-level laser treatments or a matching sham treatment three times per week for 2 weeks. Reduction in the total combined inches of circumference measurements of the waist, hip and bilateral thighs from baseline to the completion of the 2-week procedure administration phase was assessed. RESULTS: Participants in the treatment group demonstrated an overall reduction in total circumference across all three sites of -3.51 in. (P < 0.001) compared with control subjects who revealed a -0.684 reduction (P < 0.071745). Test group participants demonstrated a reduction of -0.98 in. (P < 0.0001) across the waist, -1.05 in. (P < 0.01) across the hip, and -0.85 in. (P < 0.01) and -0.65 in. (P < 0.01) across the right and left thighs from baseline to 2 weeks (end of treatment). At 2 weeks post-procedure, test group subjects demonstrated a gain of 0.31 total inches collectively across all three sites. CONCLUSION: These data suggest that low-level laser therapy can reduce overall circumference measurements of specifically treated regions. AND commercially, there are already FDA approved and available devices for this fat loss procedure. Two different nM diodes are utilized. This website has a full explanation and videos. http://www.elememedical.com/smoothshapes-how-smoothshapes-works.php AND there is a competing device made by the company Syneron called “Velashape”. Many technical clinical papers can be found here: http://syneron.com/clinical-papers#CC The “office” treatment of this is around $3000!!!!!! Yikes Patents galore on this methodology….BUT 630nm and 900nm range diodes and a good esthetician self massage would easily provide the same result, in my opinion. |
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Editor Total Posts: 502 Member Since: |
[ # 12 ] August 10, 2010, 02:42 PM
We aren’t. We’ve posted those studies before, and that’s why I made my device like I did. The question remaining was whether or not 5mW diodes would do the trick, and whether or not the goal was “the more energy the better” or do we stick to the 3-6 joules window of energy. I’ve answered the first part with “No”. The second is probably “the more energy the better” within reason, but I don’t know yet. |
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Build your own Laser Helmet | Laser Brush | Laser Device at OverMachoGrande.com! The internet’s first, best, and biggest consumer advocate site on laser therapy for hair loss! It’s time to educate yourself about one of the greatest treatments in FORUM HISTORY… |
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