Pulsed Lasers (Thread closed because it was getting too long!)

   
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Frantoli

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December 29, 2010, 02:25 PM

First for me in this forum.
I’ve been going to Gaunitz hairgrowth centers for the past 4 years and have had an unbelievable amount of success.  I took a little break about two years ago due to the expansive nature of the clinic and built my own laser helmet using 650nm diodes and did not have any success.  I found that Gaunitz was using 635nm so I bought 50 diodes and still no success.  I went back to Gaunitz and my hair and scalp was regenerated immediately.
Gaunitz was sold to Evolution Hair Centers over a year ago, and it seems to me that they are not maintaining their machines as I can feel my scalp deteriorating and the hoods do not seem to run or sound the way they normally do.  I have brought this to their attention, but they didn’t do anything about it.  Anyways, I’ve been doing some research the last few weeks and found in their patent they they are using 635nm at a pulse of 8.967 Khertz which I definitely think is the missing link.
If anyone has used Gaunitz in the early days… there is no “I think my hair is getting healthier”  it is “Holy Crap! My hair is getting really thick!”

Anyways, I wanted to see if anyone has done any research on pulsed lasers.  I have cut and pasted their online patent below along with a couple of descriptions of the lasers.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2007/0184003.html

Referring now to FIG. 2, the use of laser energy component 110 of FIG. 1 is described in further detail. Laser energy component 110 is most preferably included in all treatment phases and comprises the application of a relatively low power laser light to the scalp. As previously mentioned, laser energy component 110 is most preferably combined with topical scalp treatments and nutritional supplements. In the most preferred embodiments of the present invention, laser light, generated by a class 3A laser device, with a frequency range of approximately 600 nm-690 nm is applied to the scalp. The most desired range for the laser light being applied to the scalp is in the range of 620 nm-645 nm. While not preferred, other frequencies, outside of the most preferred range, may also be employed with varying results. In general, the higher the power of the laser, the less exposure time that will be required for a standard treatment. Additionally, the pulse rate may also be considered as a relevant factor in determining the exact amount of laser treatment to be applied to the scalp. Suitable representative lasers are offered by Erchonia Medical, Inc., Crown Laser of Australia, and Transform Technologies AB.

In the most preferred embodiments of the present invention, patient 220 will also be provided with a small handheld laser unit 230 that will used to provide laser energy 215 in a residential or non-clinical environment. The use of laser unit 230 provides patient 220 with an opportunity to conduct additional treatment sessions in the residential environment. In the most preferred embodiments of the present invention, patient 220 will use the handheld laser unit to apply laser energy to the scalp for a period of approximately 1 minute to 10 minutes on a daily basis. In the most preferred embodiments of the present invention, the handheld laser unit utilized by patient 220 will emit laser, light with a wavelength of 635 nm and with a frequency pulse rate of 8.967 Khertz. With the use of both clinical laser systems and residential hand-held units, a wide variety of treatment options and protocols are available. Accordingly, the exact laser treatment selected is not as critical as incorporating a laser treatment component in conjunction with the other components in the present invention to achieve the most successful results.

Thanks,
Frantoli

 

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Lapwing

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# 1 ]

December 29, 2010, 02:51 PM

Frantoli,

I am very interested in pulsed lasers.  I definitely think that should be next generation of Laser helmets.  I am glad to hear you got great results with them.  This is good info on the pulse rate at around 9 kHz.  I thought people like Nidhogge and OMG were/have looked into this.  I think we should develop this pulsed technology for our at home lasers.  This could be like a 15% improvement in results or more over our current continuous mode diodes.

Is anybody here working on pulsing the diodes?  Can our current diodes handle being pulsed or do we need special ones made for pulsing?  And are there pulsed power supplies currently/readily available? 

I love to have this option available even if it is much more expensive.  Thanks for bringing this issue up again Frantoli!  I was real interested in pulsed diodes in the past, but kind of let it drop and have not thought about in a while.

 

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Frantoli

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December 29, 2010, 03:09 PM

Lapwing,
Great to hear you are on board with this.  Now we just need to find some electrical engineer that could help us.  If we get this right, you’ll see way much more than a 15% improvement.  It’s unbelievable how much it has helped me.  I went from not having bangs for years to a thick set of bangs and they grew so fast and healthy.

The pulse is so quick, it can not be seen by the naked eye.  Also their hoods are built with either 25 diodes or 30 diodes.  Two 30 minutes sessions per week is plenty.  I had stopped taking topicals and supplements after my first year into it and there was no change.  The magic has to be in their lasers.

 

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mj

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December 29, 2010, 05:08 PM

I agree that pulsed is the way to go and have been pushing for further exploration of this idea   for the past year or so….initially there were a few talented guys on top of this but I think they’ve stopped posting.  If you search earlier posts you might find a few helpful details.  I have no idea idea how to do it, but i think it would be a major DIY advancement if someone can figure it out.


Tried a lot of things, never stuck with anything. Don’t do that

 

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gcdante

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December 29, 2010, 10:24 PM

This isn’t hard.  What we need to find out is the pulse width and operating frequency of the current laser diodes we are using.  Then we’d just have to find drivers capable of pulsing.  Aixiz does a pretty crappy job of giving good schematics… but I’m sure if somebody called them they’d help us out.

 

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nyk11

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December 30, 2010, 12:47 AM

This is very intriguing.  Are any other companies using these pulsed laser hoods besides the Gaunitz clinics?  I find it very hard to believe that i can’t find a single laser hair clinic in New York City using these, but i really don’t think there are!  I just want to find whatever will give me maximum results.

When you were getting these great results, were you taking internal dht blockers and using minoxidil?

Another thing i’m very curious about is that handheld device he’s selling on his site for $2,000, which uses pulsed lasers and he claims you only need to use for 4 minutes a day.  Does anyone know ANYONE who’s ever used this thing??  Again, if i KNEW that people were experiencing great success with this device, i would pay the money for it, even if it is unreasonable.

 

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Lapwing

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December 30, 2010, 02:24 PM

nyk11,

Are you talking about the Erchonia THL-1 HandHeld Laser.  It must be a very high power laser, otherwise how can one do their session in 4 minutes and get in the right amount of J/cm^2.  I don’t trust a handheld.  Plus I could not find any real specs on this device. 

Gaunitz claims 635 nm to be the better wavelength, but from all my studies, 660 nm was suppose to be the better wavelength for biostimulation of hair.  And these Gaunitz Hair Evolution sites talk about over-stimulation by using too many diodes, which is just a stupid scare tactic aimed at off course us (ie OMG laser messiah users).  It is all about J/cm^2 delivered to the hair follicles.  It you hit the sweet spot you hit the sweet spot and not over stimulation. 

Anyway pulsed lasers are suppose to be better from the literature of real studies and it is something we should develop for our home laser helmets to maximize our results.

 

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actionreaction

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December 30, 2010, 02:50 PM

Lapwing - December 29, 2010, 02:51 PM

Frantoli,

  I definitely think that should be next generation of Laser helmets.  I think we should develop this pulsed technology for our at home lasers.  This could be like a 15% improvement in results or more over our current continuous mode diodes.

Laser Messiah III? That would be absolutely awesome if OMG incorporates this.


Of a suprahuman immensity in a patch of sand or a raptors guileless shivering intensity, I’m only a visitor,
an atom of atoms on a jutting red splattered synagogue of granite as it crouches literally in space
A frozen amoral giant gazing heavenward, forever

 

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Frantoli

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December 31, 2010, 11:03 AM

I’ve just sent a request of information about pulsed lasers to Dr Charles Maricle at Axiz Lasers.  We’ll see what he has to say.
Anyways, I just found out that Gaunitz (Now Evolution Hair Center) has exclusive U.S. rights to Crown Laser (Innovation Hair Loss) out of Australia.  Here is their website: http://www.ihls.com.au/
That is the reason why no one else has their lasers but Gaunitz.  I have also used the THL handheld manufactured by Erchonia, but did not have any success with it as it was just a 5mw laser piece of shit device.

I also don’t know how big of a part joules plays in this.  I think it’s the lasers and how they penetrate the scalp.  When Gaunitz hoods are maintained properly, I can go a half hour every two weeks and still see great results.  If you go twice a week, you’ll be able to tug on your hair and nothing falls out.

 

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Lapwing

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December 31, 2010, 02:34 PM

Just a quick reply

Wavelength is directly related to penetration depth.  630-660 nm wavelengths penetrate and deposit the laser energy (Joules) at the target depth of the follicle.  That is why lasers are so great, they can penetrate the scalp and target directly the follicles.

On Joules and dosing, you want a dose of 3 J to 8 J at most per session per unit area.  The Laser Messiah at 20 minutes delivers about a 5 J dose per unit area.  Probably the Gaunitz hood at 30 minutes delivers 3-6 J per unit area.  This is the sweet spot for energy dose.

Pulsed lasers are known to enhance results and produce greater biostimulation for the same amount of Joules delivered to the follicles.

Wow the THL is only a 5 mw device, what a piece of junk!

 

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Calbruin

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January 01, 2011, 03:28 PM

Wow, this sounds very interesting. Nice work guys; I’d be very interested in something like this.

 

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January 04, 2011, 11:06 AM

I’d REALLY like to hear John, (O.M.G.), respond to this.

 

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January 04, 2011, 11:43 AM

So there are a number of websites that show you how to build your own pulsed laser drivers, and you can easily buy 180mW or 250mW NEC, Toshiba, or Sony 660nm lasers online (just run a search for 660nm lasers on Ebay).

  Anybody here with a breadboard or who is decent with circuits could build a couple drivers… hook up 3-4 250mW pulsed lasers, and use them in a brush.  I could see this as being a complimentary procedure to a laser helmet to switch things up occasionally.

  Now all I would need is a nice mirror to spread those beams over a nice area.

 

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FunkyStumpfighter

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January 04, 2011, 12:58 PM

http://www.worldhairloss.org/index.php/forums/viewthread/52/

http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-topic/24319

http://www.hairlossfight.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1698

I remember there being a lot more discussion on it, but those are the threads I found on a quick Google.

 

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Lapwing

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January 04, 2011, 01:57 PM

gcdante,

That is very interesting idea, but I don’t think one wants to use high power lasers greater than 50 mW.  The potential damage if you get one of those in your eyes could be significant.  As much as I dislike MPB, my eyesight is more precious.

What I really would like is 300 to 400 lower power pulsed diodes in a messiah helmet. 

From what I recall, OMG did not think the extra benefit was worth all the extra hassles and expense of implementing pulsed lasers.  But as Frantoli points out, the benefits might be bigger than previously thought.  And who knows with a little ingenuity, a pulsed laser helmet may not be that hard or expensive to make.  I think we should try.  I am willing to pay more for a pulsed laser helmet.

 

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January 04, 2011, 02:01 PM

Thanks very much guys for all of the responses. I guess I’m asking because I bought a 400 laser helmet and I’m thinking, “oh, no, is there something better?” I have a tendency to get like that. Thanks again!

 

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Frantoli

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January 04, 2011, 04:26 PM

I don’t think it will take as many lasers.  I know Gaunitz has a hood with 25, 30 and then they made a bigger one with 50 diodes.  But once they hit the 50 diodes I think that’s where they ran into the problem and the mechanism in the hood/helmet that makes it pulse at 6.967 khertz frequency seemed to fail after a couple of months.

We need to hear from Dr. Charles Maricle, but he hasn’t respond to anything I’ve sent him.  Charles and I had spoke about Gaunitz a few years back.  In fact he knows Bill Gaunitz and knows of his technology.  If we can get him to mimic the patent with just 30 focused beams, I’m sure the price wouldn’t be too different.

Can anybody get a hold of Charles Maricle from Aixiz?  Does anybody know of anyone who knows anything about lasers?

 

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Frantoli

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January 04, 2011, 04:46 PM

That’s weird.  I just received an email back from Charles Maricle.  We will be talking tomorrow.  I will keep everyone updated.

 

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Lapwing

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January 04, 2011, 05:21 PM

If I remember correctly, the other LLLT expert besides OMG that I remember best was a poster named JDP710 from the regrowth old glory days before the drug pusher took it back over.  JDP did a lot of research on LLLT and had it well documented. 

 

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January 04, 2011, 06:16 PM

If I may be so bold as to quote an old OMG post:

I spoke to Dr. Maricle at length about this last night. The things he says are sometimes WAY over my head, and maybe there are cheaper ways to do this, but he feels that it’s not going to easily work for a large number of diodes. Bottom line… it’s going to cost over a thousand clams for something that can pulse 415 lasers and have it adjustable.
Now, he most definitely can put me in touch with an equipment manufacturer and we could get this done -but all of a sudden our helmets are into the $2000-$3000 price range! Adding “two large” to the cost isn’t what I’d consider cost effective.

He explained why, it did make sense, but If someone can prove that wrong… by all means, DO IT. I want to see it done, though, not theorized about -and with a high number of diodes before I get excited and make you an offer! lol… From what I understand, getting a small amount of diodes to do this is pretty easy, but when you have the interstellar light show known as a 300-415 diode helmet, it doesn’t work the “easy way”.

Getting a few diodes to pulse is one thing, getting 300-400 lasers to pulse is an entirely different story. Even Gaunitz doesn’t use hardly that many lasers at once. There was a member here that was looking at a way of doing it cheaply, but he either gave up or it just didn’t work.

Pulsing anything seems to increase efficiency, so it would be nice to have a viable means of pulsing our helmets. Unfortunately, right now it seems wildly expensive.

 

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actionreaction

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January 04, 2011, 06:19 PM

What we need are some good, balding philanthropists.


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Zone

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January 04, 2011, 07:04 PM

Hi guys – great thread!

I have been using my home made laser helmet (based on 650nm diodes) for about a year only and recently become aware of a new treatment that can replace liposuction for fat removal known as Zerona laser therapy. After some investigation I was quite struck with the similarities with my laser helmet. Seems that the Zerona laser is a 635nm laser device and from what I can find so far (see link http://www.busylightclinic.ca/promotional-offers/zerona-clinical-research/ ) it requires modulation of the laser diode at 1,000 Hz.  Sound a bit familiar?

Anyway after some (brief) research you can modulate your diodes via a function generator,you can find many available on ebay. I just ordered one for about $100 and will have a go at modulating my current laser helmet even though it was built with 650nm diodes – will let you know if it makes a difference. I have also ordered a few 635nm (a 5mw & a 10mw) and will have a go at making my own Zerona laser.

One note about function generators is that under load the waveform can drop in voltage and maybe even frequency meaning that the only way to be sure that you are providing the correct modulation is to check the output once it is connected to your diodes using a oscilloscope (starting to get a bit complicated?). Unfortunately oscilloscopes are not cheap however I found this great little pocket version (http://www.justblair.co.uk/seeed-studio-dso-nano-pocket-digital-storage-oscilloscope-review.html ) for about $100 (I ordered the updated version V2).

Just noticed the post regarding the cost to modulate 400-500 diodes – great point! My helmet only contains 50 diodes so will give it a go with a cheap function generator and let you know if it works.

Cheers

 

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lp69

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January 05, 2011, 04:11 AM

Here is what OMG already said on this forum:

OverMachoGrande - July 03, 2010, 02:36 PM

MJ…

I actually disagree with that.  Most devices out there -including the Sunetics G, which is arguably the standard for laser clinics- DO NOT pulse. 

When I asked Dr. Maricle about this, he told me that more of the old clinic devices from the 90’s and back used to pulse, but they sort of fell out of favor.  My guess as to why is because they were a lot more expensive but didn’t show that much more results.

However, he also said that there has NEVER been a test of a pulsed device vs. a non-pulsing one, though.  No one has EVER taken the time to compare a pulsing on to a non-pulsing one in terms of results!  Can you believe that?!  That’s crazy to me -but hey, this is the way of the world.  I suppose it’s up to US to be the ones to do the comparison.  Anyway, just tuck that in the back of your mind though as further evidence that these companies out there just don’t really care to find out what is truly the BEST, they are only interested in what works ok but is profitable.

Don’t misunderstand me, though… I VERY MUCH want to get that pulsing device working so we can test it.  It might be a great way to step up our results -or it might just prove not to be that great for hair loss.  See, pulsing is really good for deep tissue because the short bursts can apparently penetrate deeper, but we don’t really need that with a follicle that’s only 4mm or so deep.  If it doesn’t pan out as being an better for the helmets, it’d help for a lot of other things that we may be interested in doing (non-hair loss).

Here is the deal, too.  The reason people know about pulsing devices for hair loss is because of a gung ho marketing guy named Gaunitz.  He’s a nice guy and helps a lot of people, but he wears out every consumer advocate bone in my body by selling a ONE DIODE device for $2000 and consistently says that only his laser machines (which are modified pain machines) work.  Among other things, he had some dude spam the forums last year that proclaimed Gaunitz’s diodes -and only gaunitz’s diodes in the machines that pulse - could get true results or something.  It was all ridiculous and I wasn’t posting then, but yeah… it was spam, and most everyone fell for it (even though if you looked at the guy’s website it said it was an internet marketing company).

The reason Gaunitz’s clinic gets results is that he has a full regimen that includes LLLT, detox, etc. -the works.  That’s similar to what Immortal, Joe, and I have together with our worldhairloss regimen -the difference, of course, being that we tell you exactly what’s in ours and show you how to make your own LLLT device and get your own supplements.  We don’t say “My helmet is the only device that works because of a magic diode you can’t get anywhere else”, or whatever.

So, that’s my feeling on it.  If we get the pulse device up and running and it works as well as people have hyped… so be it!  I’ll eat my words and be the first to embrace it, and potentpotables and I will figure out how to get this out so everyone can do it as cheap as possible.

-O.M.G.

 

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January 05, 2011, 05:26 PM

Yeah, but now Frantoli has tried both and says results for pulsed lasers are much, much better!

 

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January 05, 2011, 05:50 PM

OMG seemed reasonably balanced to me - sceptical (me to) and a desire to build one and test it. And that’s the bottom line here, we need to try this and see if it works. If it doesn’t work then we will have learnt something, if it does then great.

 

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Frantoli

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January 05, 2011, 05:59 PM

I never connected with Dr. Charles Maricle today.  I’ll let everyone know when I talk with him.

In regards to O.M.G’s response, he is absolutely correct about the THL laser hand device.  Let’s keep that out of the equation.  It didn’t work for me and it’s probably some marketing fluff to sell as many as they can to consumers who don’t live in AZ.  About the full regimen, detox etc… I think that is a bunch more marketing fluff from Gaunitz.  I haven’t used any of their products in over 3 years and when their Crown Laser Hoods are maintained, you don’t need it.  In fact when I first went their for a consultation, the sales rep (who was pretty cool and straight forward) even said that the magic is in the lasers.

Now I’m not sure if it’s the pulsing, the frequency (8.967 kHertz), both of them together or if I just have an extremely sensitive scalp, but when the Crown Lasers are maintained, they are amazing!  That part of the Gaunitz program is not marketing fluff or spam.  I’ve have also tried another laser hood at a salon with 90 diodes a couple years back and knew right away it wouldn’t work.

I think we need to focus on the pulse(modulation) and frequency.  I’m sure the 650nm diodes would work as good or even better then the 635nm.
Again, this is just my scalp and hair talking.  There was never a fine line to if my scalp felt healthy and if some hair was growing in.  I knew a lot of hair was growing, my scalp was spongy and my hair seemed as healthy, shiny, and bouncy as when I was younger.

 

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calvinist

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January 05, 2011, 06:24 PM

Frantoli,

I also went to Gaunitz recently for a scalp inspection so to speak. It was $5,000 for 9 months and then they dropped it to $4,000 after my mouth was just hanging open! I couldn’t afford it and found O.M.G.‘s site just searching the web for what I would do next. So, this week I will complete my first month with my 400 diode helmet. I see you said that you noticed the Gaunitz lasers working right away? What is right away, how long? I’m really thinking I need to give this at least 9 months to see if it works, and from what I read on here, it works for most people. Just curious what you think. Thanks.

 

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January 05, 2011, 08:10 PM

Hay Frantoli – you seem to have noted two different modulation frequencies 8.967k Hz and 9.967k Hz. I think the former is the correct one, is that right? And clearly you were referring to 650 & 635nm lasers.

 

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January 05, 2011, 08:27 PM

zone - you dont need freq generator, you can use your pc or laptop with a simple software..

 

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Frantoli

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January 05, 2011, 11:00 PM

Calvinist,
First off, I would not recommend going to Gaunitz anymore due to not maintaining their equipment.
I saw results easily by the first month but it probably wasn’t until the 3rd or 4th week and they just kept coming from there.  Now I think my scalp may be more conducive to the lasers then most.  The color of my hair is brownish red and I’m more on the fair skin side then dark if that has anything to do with it.  My hair wasn’t horribly bad when I started at Gaunitz, but buddies were giving me a hard time about my hair line and I was shedding like crazy.  My brother has been bald since he was 23, so it does run in our family, but was getting me a little later.

Zone,
8.967k hz is the frequency they have documented in the Gaunitz Patent.  Yes I was referring to 650 & 635nm (Wow… I don’t know what the heck happened in that post).  Sorry for the confusion.  When do you think you’ll be able to pulse the Diodes?

 

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January 06, 2011, 12:24 AM

Frantoli,
I just ordered my function generator yesterday and it has a 7 – 10 day delivery lead time. So with a bit of luck the week after next. My DSO oscilloscope just arrived today however so I can start playing with that at least.

Nanas,
Thanks for the advice – would probably work well for a small number of diodes. Having said that I’m not sure if my function generator is going to cope with my 50 diode helmet (hence the oscilloscope) however I did order a couple of 635nm diodes that I can do some testing with. I know for a fact that the function generator I ordered can cope with a 1M ohm load however my helmet measures in at 1.5M so just going to have to wait and see.

 

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January 07, 2011, 04:42 PM

Hay Funkystumpfighter,
You got me thinking (while I was waiting for my function generator to arrive). If I am going to buy (or build) something to pulse my helmet with then I need to know the specifications a little better. Firstly my diodes are as follows: 650nm 3.2V 5mw 8x13 diodes purchased from Aixiz and my helmet contains 50 of these babies.

Ok pulled out my trusty multimeter and measured voltage and current draw of my helmet under load and got the following measurements:
Voltage: 3.5V
Current 800mA

That equates to 16mA per diode (on average) thus a 500 diode rig would require about 8 amps. Now a few things are clear, firstly the function generator that I purchased is not going to drive my helmet – oh well should have done this in the first place, on the up side I can add it to my collection of test equipment. Secondly I am positive that we could buy (or build) a pulse generator that could cope with 8 amps for considerably less than $1000. In fact I am sure that we could do it for under $100 if we build it ourselves.

I would be really interested in hearing from anyone who has a 400-500 diode rig – could you please confirm my projections above and measure the current draw of your helmet?

Am off to do some more research.

 

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Lapwing

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January 07, 2011, 07:52 PM

Zone,

You must have miss-read your multimeter.  P=VI, so I=P/V.  In your case P=50x5mW=250mW, and the diodes are rated at 3.2V.  So your current should be I=250mW/3.2 = 80mA.  Please go back and check your measurement and make sure you are reading the right scale. 

By my calculation a 500 diode rig should require about 800mA.

 

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January 07, 2011, 08:40 PM

Hi Lapwig,
Great question! I can confirm that there is no mistake I triple checked and even connected my helmet to my test power supply that has a voltage and amp meter built in (although not super accurate) and it confirmed a reading of about 1A. My Fluke digital multimeter’s reading was 0.79A.

So why doesn’t it comply with ohms law? Well my guess is that that the power rating of the diodes is output power and not total power consumption. Have a look on the Aixiz site you will find a datasheet for some of the diodes like this 635nm 3.2V 5mw diode - note the operating current 30mA ( http://www.aixiz.com/spec/635/A-H635-5-1230.pdf ). Now if Ohms law applied that diode would actually have a power rating of 96mw not 5mw.

Why don’t you connect a multimeter to your helmet and confirm the readings. I would be keen to hear if 8A is sufficient for 500 diodes. On another forum someone was suggesting that you would need 25A for 500 diodes although they didn’t state the power rating of the diodes.

On another note I found a circuit that meets our criteria so am planning to make one. Off to the electronics store! see:( http://www.rmcybernetics.com/projects/DIY_Devices/homemade_pulse_controller.htm )

 

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# 34 ]

January 07, 2011, 09:20 PM

Zone,

Thanks!  That makes sense to me now.  The 5mW rating is just the laser output and not the input power required by them in the circuit.  It was just that you were off by a power of 10 by my naive calculation.  And it is easy to misread the meters by that factor.  I guess that extra power ends up going to all that heat they generate.  Those laser diodes are inefficient little devils.

 

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# 35 ]

January 07, 2011, 09:38 PM

I have a approx. 450 diode and a multimeter.  If you’ll tell me how to take the measurement you want, I’ll be happy to do it…

 

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# 36 ]

January 08, 2011, 12:57 AM

Thanks Rosariorose9!

Ok measuring voltage is easy as this can be done in parallel; current however must be read in series meaning that you are going to have to add your meter into the circuit to complete the circuit.
To measure the current of my helmet I cut the positive wire and put one of my probes on one end of the positive wire and the other probe on the other end of the positive wire thus completing the circuit. Of course I had to cut the positive wire to do this however I could easily fix that. And I wanted to change my 2.5mm socket anyway – it’s about a year old and is getting a bit loose.
One word of warning – my multimeter has a different socket that must be used if you are measuring current.

The attached picture should help – just in case I am not too good with the explanation.

Image Attachments  AmpTst 1011.jpg

 

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# 37 ]

January 08, 2011, 01:19 PM

Zone - January 08, 2011, 12:57 AM

...The attached picture should help – just in case I am not too good with the explanation.

Sorry to be dense, but not sure that I understand your explanation.  Two questions:

1) What are the parallel connections I should be making with my meter to measure the voltage?

2) Regarding current, it appears from your image that you’re measuring the current of only one diode.  Am I wrong on that, or is that what you want?

 

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# 38 ]

January 08, 2011, 03:09 PM

so I have an 80 laser diode laser stand…would that be easier to convert to a pulsed unit since it has fewer lasers?


Tried a lot of things, never stuck with anything. Don’t do that

 

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# 39 ]

January 08, 2011, 06:13 PM

No probs Rosariorose9.

1) Parallel means measuring “across” the circuit ie one probe connected to the positive wire and the other connected to the negative wire. Current is measure in series meaning that you need to break the circuit and “insert” your meter.

2) I am measuring the current of all my diodes. My diodes are wired such that they come back to a single +ve & -ve wire which is then connected to my power supply. In the picture I just cut the +ve wire and inserted my multimeter into the circuit allowing me to measure the current draw of all 50 diodes – top of picture is just part of my helmet.

There is nothing like seeing for yourself so check out this video on youtube: http://www.ehow.com/video_4416887_measure-current-circuit.html

MJ,
A pulse circuit to drive 500 diodes would need to cope with considerably more current than a driver for 80 diodes so it might be easier to build a driver for 80 diodes. The circuit that I found (see above) should cope with 10A continuous. This would meet my needs of 50 diodes and may even cope with a 500 diode rig – based on the current draw of my helmet (ie 16mA per diode) – however there is nothing like the real world which is why I am trying to confirm the assumption with Rosariorose9.

 

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# 40 ]

January 09, 2011, 01:37 PM

i dont have any extra diodes beside those in my helmet, so i cant make any experiments…

if had extra diode this is what i would do - run a freq. generator software on the computer, plug a cable to
the headphones output and connect the other side of the cable to the diode.

this is a decent freq. generator software

http://www.brothersoft.com/multisine-164317.html

in theory, it should work…in worse case you burn the diode.

by the way, the headphones output is about 5V , dont know about amperage. but you can start with a low volume.

 

 

 

 

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# 41 ]

January 09, 2011, 05:06 PM

Hi nanas,

it’s not the diode that I would be worried about - it’s the audio driver in my pc. It would likely cope with a few diodes but not a 100 or 500. 8A is some serious current mate. I came to the same conclusion with my function generator – that is it would be ok to test the concept but not good enough to drive 500 diodes (or even the 50 in my helmet). But great idea for testing the concept nanas!

 

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# 42 ]

January 09, 2011, 06:01 PM

thanks man!

if it works you can try to connect the pc to an audio amp ,and then connect the diodes to the speaker output (of the amp)

but this is just an idea. i think the voltage may be too high and the current too low.. i have to check it.

 


 

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# 43 ]

January 09, 2011, 09:24 PM

Ok this was a bit harder than I was hoping however I got my first attempt of the pulse generator up and running! If you follow the link I posted earlier you will find the circuit that I have built and the values of all the components. The only change I have made so far is to use a TIP142 transistor instead of the IRF740 mosfet identified in the schematic – this is because the 142 is more stable at low voltages like we require. That said the circuit is designed to run on 6v minimum and I have been testing at about 6.5v.

The attached pictures:
Picture 1 – I have redrawn the schematic because the one on the web site doesn’t identify the pin configuration of the LM393 IC

Picture 2 – A close up of the completed circuit the TIP142 is the black component to right of the picture, it is rated at 10amps so should cater for 500 diode rigs. I have used punch board to make up the circuit so it’s a bit ugly at the moment. If I can get it working to our parameters I will make up a proper PCB.

Picture 3 – Shows the circuit connected to a light bulb (my test load) and my oscilloscope – generating a nice square wave! If you zoom in on the oscilloscope you will note the peak to peak voltage of 6.24V and a frequency of 558Hz. The frequency is fully adjustable and will easily go up to the 9kHz that we require.

Changes that I still need to make – add a heat sink to the TIP142 under load this baby is going to need some cooling. Modify the circuit to deliver an output voltage of about 3.5V peak to peak. I plan to do some more testing with various loads and load current before connecting it to my helmet. Will let you know how I get on. Now I better spend some time with the family, I am on holidays and the wife is not too impressed with the amount of time I am devoting to this little project.

Image Attachments  Pulse Gen Scm.jpgPulse Gen Pix_01_edt.jpgPulse Gen Pix_02_edt.jpg

 

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# 44 ]

January 10, 2011, 11:15 AM

Hey, Zone, this is great by the way!

I’m sorry I haven’t been involved.  Get me a few days to get my sh*t together -I’ve had a lot of customer delays and supply problems over the past two weeks so I’ve let my email build up -and I’ve been very “selectively” involved in the forums.  I’ve got about 12 hours of email to do now, then I’ve got helmets to finish, and THEN I’d like to see if we can get this running for our helmets!

-O.M.G.


Build your own Laser Helmet | Laser Brush | Laser Device at OverMachoGrande.com!  The internet’s first, best, and biggest consumer advocate site on laser therapy for hair loss!  It’s time to educate yourself about one of the greatest treatments in FORUM HISTORY…

 

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# 45 ]

January 10, 2011, 11:17 AM

Oh, lol… and thank you for the “reasonably balanced” comment. Ha ha ha…  I pride myself on being reasonably balanced!

-O.M.G.


Build your own Laser Helmet | Laser Brush | Laser Device at OverMachoGrande.com!  The internet’s first, best, and biggest consumer advocate site on laser therapy for hair loss!  It’s time to educate yourself about one of the greatest treatments in FORUM HISTORY…

 

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# 46 ]

January 10, 2011, 03:52 PM

Before anyone goes testing a unit with a large number of diodes I want to point out one major concern I came across on this issue in the past.  I don’t remember who raised this issue, but the idea was that pulsing the diodes would severely shorten their life span.  I don’t know if that’s a valid concern or not, but maybe it would be smart to test the life span of a much smaller unit first, have it pulse for an hour a day for a couple weeks or something like that to see what happens.  You all would know more on this than me, but I would hate to see someone damage a device that cost over a thousand dollars.


Tried a lot of things, never stuck with anything. Don’t do that

 

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# 47 ]

January 10, 2011, 07:16 PM

Zone,

With apologies for the delay, I note that I’m still unable to get a reading which makes sense.  Here’s what I’ve done:

1.  ‘Bridged’ the positive wire of one of the 400+ diodes as you did in your photo, connecting one test probe to one side of that wire, and the other probe to the other side (thus completing that wire’s circuit);

2.  Connected the positive probe of my meter to the ‘AC/DC Amps Only 10A Max’ socket, and the negative probe to the 750V Max Common socket. 

3.  Setting one dial on the meter to DC V and the other to any (i.e. from 3, all the way up to 3000) of the voltage dial, I get no reading on the meter at all.

Obviously I’m no electronics genius, but I can’t figure out what I’m doing wrong here…

 

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# 48 ]

January 11, 2011, 01:58 AM

Thanks OMG – sounds like you are very busy mate! I’m just kicking back on annual leave so have a bit of time to play around with this.

mj,
I suspect that you are right, pulsing the diodes will have some kind of impact on their life, however I don’t know how significant that impact might be – perhaps you can do a bit of google research. I did a very quick check on the operating life of a laser diode module and came up with a life span of about 5,000 – 10,000Hrs. So if we assume 5,000hrs (just to be conservative) that’s 300,000 minutes based on a 25min application time for our helmets that would mean 12,000 applications – at 3 applications per week that equates to 4,000 weeks or about 77 years. Now if pulsing the diodes cuts the life in half that would mean an operating life of about 38.5 years. I’m ok with that.

Rosariorose9,
Sounds like you have connected your probes to the diode correctly but incorrectly to the meter. Take a look at my attached pictures. Pic 1 shows how to set up the meter for a voltage measurement and Pic 2 shows how to connect the probes for a current measurement. NB: my meter is 25 years old so new ones maybe a bit different.

Image Attachments  MultiMeter_1.jpgMultiMeter_2.jpg

 

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# 49 ]

January 11, 2011, 01:58 PM

Zone,

Here’s my meter.  If you can tell me how to make my ‘hook ups’, and how to set the dials, I’ll be happy to give it another try. grin

Image Attachments  My meter.jpg

 

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Rosariorose9

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# 50 ]

January 11, 2011, 02:06 PM

Here’s a bigger pic…

Image Attachments  DSCF0844-resized.jpg

 

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Zone

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# 51 ]

January 11, 2011, 07:44 PM

Wow that’s one ugly multimeter!

Although I have heard that only beautiful people have ugly multimeters….

See attached piciture – without looking at your manual this is my best guess. If that is the way you had it connected then send a complete picture of the meter connected to your diode.

Sorry about the second BMP picture - wouldn’t let me load the JPEG for some reason then when I did get it to load the BMP was there to stay!

Image Attachments  DSCF0844-resized1.jpg
Image Attachments 
DSCF0844-resized2.bmp

 

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Rosariorose9

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# 52 ]

January 11, 2011, 08:15 PM

Zone,

With the meter set as per your instructions, I get a reading of .02mA.

 

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Zone

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# 53 ]

January 11, 2011, 09:33 PM

that seems very low if you look on the Aixiz web site you will find that similar 5mw diodes have an operational current of around 20mA. Can you post picture of the meter connected to the diode and your power supply?

 

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# 54 ]

January 12, 2011, 12:07 AM

Aaarrrggghhh!  confused I’ve already put the helmet ‘back together again.’  Perhaps OMG can run the test…

 

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Zone

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# 55 ]

January 12, 2011, 01:19 AM

Ok thanks for all your help Rosariorose9 - appreciate your efforts.

I am still playing with my pulse circuit and having a few problems getting it to run at 3.5V under load. Seems that I have reached my level of capability and am not sure how to resolve the problem - to this end I have joined a couple of electronics forums and am seeking advice from those more learned than myself - will let you know how I get on.

 

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# 56 ]

January 12, 2011, 02:58 AM

Hey guys,

I’ve been a member for a while, but have not taken the opportunity to post yet. I used to post back in the day at Regrowth, so some of you may remember me. Anyway, I came across this thread on pulsed lasers and got excited. About a year and a half ago, I looked into pulsed lasers and specifically ones pulsed at about 9 kHz like Gaunitz used to use. Now, in my opinion, they charged outrageous prices and manipulated that corner of the market like everyone else in the hair loss industry, but from my research they truly did have something going with their pulsed lasers. Their results always seemed to be the best in the world of laser hair loss clinics. Yes, they had many of their clients using finasteride and minox, but so do other hair loss laser clinics that don’t have nearly as successful results. I know there has been discussion on 655 nm vs. 635 nm lasers, but from having used both, I don’t know if there is much of a difference. Most hair loss clinics use 655 because it falls right between 635 and 675, both of which are wavelengths that have been researched as laser therapies. Anyway, my point is this… I don’t think that the magic is necessarily in the 635 nm wavelength. You’re gonna get benefit anywhere within that range. But I do think that there is an added benefit to the pulsing.

Once I had the opportunity to speak with Gaunitz over the phone and weasled out of him some information regarding the benefits of pulsing lasers. The pulsing helps to elicit a stronger biological response in gene expression and is especially successful at lower dosages of joules. This is consistent with what I discovered is being used in Australia (Crowne Laser, I think?). Gaunitz got the technology from over there, so by no means did he come up with it on his own. So, you don’t necessarily NEED to use as many diodes. This can save you money. I mean, hey, who cares how many or few diodes you are using if the therapy is working.

I’m currently using an OMG-style helmet with 655 nm lasers I made and have been for a couple years. My hair is holding on and I have had the ever so slightest bit of regrowth. I think. Hard to tell lol.

Anyway, I hope somebody gets on the pulsing thing and finds a solution. I STRONGLY believe there would be added benefit in terms of fuller regrowth at that particular frequency. I would, but I am not savvy enough when it comes to those things and plus I’m in the middle of medical school and haven’t the time.

By the way, I got a function generator from Dr. Maricle about a year ago. The problem was it wouldn’t even power 15 measly diodes. It’s not a power supply. If somebody can figure out how to pulse AND power at least 60 diodes, then we’d be in business.

Maricle also said that pulsing them wouldn’t significantly reduce their life span. I asked him that specifically because I was worried about it.

 

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# 57 ]

January 12, 2011, 11:35 PM

Hi jpmarko,

That all sounds promising especially the bit about a stronger biological response. I notice that you go on to state “at a lower dosage of joules” does that mean that we may need to use our helmets for a shorter application period? I currently use a 25min application period.

Personally I really don’t know if pulsing the diodes will improve the response, however it sounds worthwhile investigating further and I am really enjoying playing around with electronic circuits again. A quick update:
I have received a number of suggestions to improve my circuit however some of the changes require parts that were not in stock at my local electronics store so I am going to have to wait up to 5 days for them to arrive.

 

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# 58 ]

January 13, 2011, 04:53 AM

When I looked into pulsing diodes (specifically 635 nm ones), I discovered that the technology was purposefully incorporated into a low-dose treatment. Now, be careful. I’m not saying that you should use your OMG helmets for a shorter period of time if you pulse them. Truth is, who knows. It has to be tested. What I do know is that Gaunitz borrowed his technology from Australia, where pulsed 635 nm lasers are a bit more prevalent in the world of hairloss. (As a matter of fact, pulsed 635 nm lasers are used in the U.S. for treating other skin conditions in clinics. This, of course, is high-grade and EXPENSIVE equipment, aka rip-off). They purposefully used 30 and 60 diode machines with 635 nm lasers that pulsed at just under 9 kHz in order to achieve that stronger biological response and gene expression studies over there have shown are elicited. Now, with that said, it is not a far leap to say that the same can occur with 655 nm lasers. They are, after all, very close in the red light spectrum. You would probably have to use slightly more 655 nm lasers in your pulsed helmet than you would in a Gaunitz helmet of 635 nm lasers. Why? Because 635 nm in a lower wavelength than 655 nm, and lower wavelengths contain more photons of energy. When the calculations are made, there are significantly more photons delivered by a 635 nm than by a 655 nm in the same given amount of time. So, that means that if you have two helmets with 50 diodes each, one with 635 nm and one with 655 nm, and you used each one for half an hour, then the one with 635 nm laser diodes would deliver a bigger punch in terms of photon energy. To compensate, you treat for a shorter amount of time with 635 nm or simply use less diodes.

The other line of reasoning is that pulsing makes it unnecessary to use so many diodes and a better response is obtained when using less diodes/joules.

Of course, so much of this is theoretical until tried. The only reason I mentioned lower dosages for pulsed devices is because that is what was successfully used by Gaunitz and hair loss companies in Australia, and more importantly because at this point it is WAY MORE CONCEIVABLE to figure out how to power 60 diodes in a pulsed device than it is a device with 300 or so diodes. At this point, at least.

 

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# 59 ]

January 13, 2011, 04:55 AM

Just want to add that by ‘low dose’ when it comes to pulsed devices does not mean a handheld with a single 5 milliwatt diode is gonna cut it. That is a scam and simply will not work. You still need a relatively high biological dose to be achieved, just perhaps not as high as we would use in a constant wave device like the ones we are currently using.

 

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# 60 ]

January 17, 2011, 12:59 AM

jpmarko,
Great information.  You’ve done your research.  I think we or Zone (sounds like he’s got the smarts for this) should just focus on anywhere from 15 to 25 diodes to pulse and bring to just under 9khertz.  If you can figure that out and give instructions, I’ll try and mimic it ASAP to see if I get the same feeling as I do when I’m under a Gaunitz.  I’m sure you’ll notice something different as well.

 

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# 61 ]

January 17, 2011, 03:15 AM

Yeah, I’d REALLY like to see somebody come up with a way to do this. I don’t know why it’s so hard. I tried last year, and as a matter of fact was on the phone with Dr. Maricle quite a bit trying to figure out how to do it. He ended up sending me a function generator that could only power like eight 5 mW diodes. It maxed out at like 0.5 amps. Pathetic. I looked for something with more capability but even Dr. Maricle was stumped. So, if somebody can figure that out, I think there would be ALOT of progress made in fighting hair loss. Now that lasers have become available to all through the work of OMG and others, if only we had the capability to pulse our lasers (my opinion), we could go a step further in combating loss and achieving regrowth.
I’d do it myself, but I am not electronically savvy enough for it. More importantly, I’m in medical school and just don’t have time right now.
For now though, I’d like to see someone pulse 50 to 60 diodes. Even 30 would be an achievement. We can go further from there.

 

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Frantoli

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# 62 ]

January 23, 2011, 10:32 PM

Hi Zone,
I just wanted to see if you had made any progress on the pulsing and to get the laser down just under 9khertz?  Has anyone had any luck?

 

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# 63 ]

January 24, 2011, 12:51 PM

Okay,

  So I’m an engineer and I work with engineers, and the reason why power supplies that are PULSED are so damned expensive is because they’re usually attached to oscilloscopes or are used for industrial applications.  It’s a lot like the difference between buying a laser device that is “commercial” and building one yourself.

  Yes, you can easily make a pulse generator on your own in conjunction with a power supply and use it to pulse a laser diode setup.

  That being said… if you’re thinking about pulsing the 5mW AiXiZ diodes… I don’t think that is the smartest idea because you’re supplying a pulsed signal to a device that has its own drivers.  You have to make sure you’re well within the operating parameters of the AiXiZ lasers.

  For instance… what pulse width are you going to use with a laser that has its own, internally-regulated driver?  Can you theoretically tell me what the correct answer would be?

 

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# 64 ]

January 24, 2011, 06:17 PM

gcdante,

Can’t you get the full AiXiZ diode specs and tell us if you think it is possible?  I don’t know anything about internally-regulated drivers.  Can you explain to me how they work and what exactly is the main problem here with pulsing? 

Maybe a pulsed laser helmet might be much more expensive, but why not have the high end pulsed option available to us who can afford it.  Btw, I am not oppose to getting an oscilloscope myself.  I have always wanted one anyway.

 

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# 65 ]

January 24, 2011, 06:49 PM

The problem is that I’m really scared of AiXiZ lasers since my first batch was one of the “bad” batches from last last summer.  I remember the diagrams online saying that they were 3.2-5V… and the packaging saying 3V… and I’m really not sure what the *&#^ their specs are on their driver boards that are on every one of their diodes.  Maybe OMG or somebody else can find an accurate description.

The big problem is that their driver is expecting DC current under certain parameters and I’m not sure what those parameters are at this time.  I have no clue what the optimal operating parameters are for these things.  I have no idea what their response would be to DC current that is modulated in a pulsed fashion.  I’d have to rip a bunch of them out… get a waveform generator with decent amperage behind it, and then test the hell out of those driver boards with a load on it.  We need a testbed engineer here, that’s what we need.

I really think that the 5mW option is simply not the way to go with pulsed laser setup.  I’m sure between a good, custom-made waveform generator and some 200mW lasers with spreaders/mirrors/diffusers on them, we could make a brush that is 1W total that could be used for 10 minutes that would be a great addition to standard laser therapy.

 

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Zone

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# 66 ]

January 25, 2011, 04:50 PM

Hi gcdante,

I’m no engineer (and that’s why I still haven’t got my pulse generator up and running – at least reliably) however I have been speaking to Aixiz and they seem to think that driving their diodes with a function generator would be fine. They also helped me to understand why my driver wasn’t driving a single diode – the problem was that I was generating a peak to peak square wave of 3.5V – the diodes require 3.2 – 5V RMS (root mean square) which (for a square wave) is about 7V p-p (I think), I am using a 50% duty cycle.

Perhaps you can lend us your expertise and have a look at the circuit I posted earlier and give some advice for improvements – I would really appreciate your help. I am back at work now and don’t have much time for this anymore however am still keen to get it working.

Another problem seems to be the cable connecting the pulse generator to the load – when I have had my generator working connecting it to a diode load with a short lead has been fine however the moment that I connect it via a long lead it kills the circuit – should I be using a shielded lead or is there another problem here?

 

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# 67 ]

January 25, 2011, 07:24 PM

Hey Zone,

  Well a friend of mine at work used to be a testbed engineer at GE for about 30 years.  He’s an analogue circuits (or circwits) specialist, and I’ll gladly ask him for some help when I see him.  He’s the type of guy who can look at designs and improve them at a glance.

  Yep, you’re learning quickly! It’s ALL about the RMS measurement just as it is in the audio world with wattage.  Peak-to-peak is not useful in this situation at all.

  Give me some time to check on this for you.  If you don’t hear from me within a week, shoot me a PM.

 

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Zone

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# 68 ]

January 25, 2011, 08:38 PM

That would be awesome gcdante – thank you!

I think if a few of us get together we can get this up and running. One thing that is clearly missing from my circuit is protection. It would be great if we could make it a bit more reliable by including spike protection (maybe adding some TVS diodes) and short circuit protection – perhaps your friend could suggest something.

Sounds like you are the man for this gcdante – looking forward to hearing from you!

 

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Corleone

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# 69 ]

January 27, 2011, 09:35 PM

Really interesting thread.  I looked through the Innovation Hair Loss (the Australian-based company Gaunitz licenses the pulsed laser technology from) website (http://www.ihls.com.au/crownlaserprod.html) and it looks like they sell their own version of a laser helmet.  Anyone know if it has the same specs as the Crown Laser Frantoli referenced earlier in the thread?  I’ve emailed them a few times but haven’t heard back.  Either way I’m assuming it’s hugely cost prohibitive, so am excited to hear about the progress people on here make with the DIY version.

Btw, the before/after pics on the Innovation Hair Loss website look really good.

 

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# 70 ]

January 27, 2011, 11:20 PM

Corleone,
Innovation Hair Loss said that they are the exact same specs as they were when Gaunitz used to use their Crown Lasers a few years back.  We can buy them from them.  I think the 15 diode helmet is $5k and going up from there.  She said that the only thing different is that they don’t use the rotating hood anymore.  It was just one extra thing to maintain.

gcdante,
Is there any way for us to find out the khertz that the Aixiz lasers are putting out?  Can we get them down to 8.967 khertz which is stated in the crown laser patent.  I think that might be an extremely important piece of the puzzle.

 

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nyk11

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# 71 ]

January 31, 2011, 09:32 PM

I found a place in my area that actually has a pulsed laser machine.  I called and spoke to the guy, and he told me that its basically a gimmick and that he doesn’t know if it works any better than the regular one.  He said he just bought both to make sure.  Maybe its because he doesn’t have the magic Gaunitz lasers?  Or maybe he’s trying to make a sale on the non-pulsed one?

I have a messiah that i’ve only been using for a little while, but I just want to get the best results possible.  Do you think i should take a plunge and go for the pulsed machine at the place?

 

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Frantoli

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# 72 ]

January 31, 2011, 10:59 PM

I really don’t know what you should do.  I think there might be something magical about the khertz.  Does anybody know anything about bringing the lasers to just under 9khertz?  Are we running into a dead end with this whole idea?

 

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# 73 ]

February 06, 2011, 12:47 PM

Zone,

Saw a post on another thread about you using 1000 Hz.  Figured I should post here…

I have a pulsed and a CW continuous wave (aka non pulsed) LED device.  Pulsed gives faster results but not better results for facial rejuventation, IME.

Should experiment with different frequencies as you can get less results or even no results depending on which frequency used compared to CW lasers.

... said gaunitz uses 9000 Hz if you want to experiment there.

I’ve posted some info years ago about which frequencies to use for specific results.  The only one I can find now is this one….

But again, in short, it’s all about the frequency used.  I didn’t want to try years ago as way too much work to find appropriate frequency.

“In vivo irradiation at energy densities of 3.5J/cm2 at 3000 Hz accelerated healing of rat wounds, while a frequency of 1500 did not do so.”

“FREQUENCIES Frequencies in laser dosimetry is another vast area to be considered. Lasers can be used in continuous mode or pulsed. Pulsed lasers deliver fewer joules than continuous. However, the frequency, or pulses per second, can be used to achieve specific effects. As explained by Dyson(11), the cyclotron resonance theory states that biological effects occur around particular frequencies, and these depend upon the mass and charge of the particles involved. The major activities of the cell, controlled by membrane permeability to ions such as calcium are modified by these frequency windows. Studies by the same author with the same power and energy densities showed 500 Hz to produce inhibition whereas low frequency pulsation as 2 hz produced stimulation. Studies by Ueda et al(32) with GaAlA used continuous and pulsed mode on proliferation of bone cells. Pulsed irradiation stimulated cellular proliferation, bone nodule formation, ALP activity and ALP gene _expression more than continuous irradiation. The author concluded that pulsing is an important factor affection biological response to bone formation. Bradley at the Naalt 2003 Conference suggested the following frequencies for specific pathologies

2 Hz Nerve regeneration, neurite outgrowth,

7 Hz Bone growth

10 Hz Ligamentous healing

15, 20, 72 Hz. Decreased skin necrosis, stimulation of capillary formation and fibroblast proliferation 2.5 Hz. Endorphin release

200 Hz Serotonin release

David Rindge(32) explains the principles of pulsing which is accommodated with the view that the body’s sensitivity to any steady stimulus diminishes over a period of time. Pulsing aligns the rhythms of the cells when correctly used. Pulsing for lasers with a steady power output is different than for the GaAs laser which builds up to a momentary peak that may be 1000 fold greater than its average output. Tunér/Hode(33) in their book Laser Therapy suggested for superpulsed GaAs lasers

Pain, neuralgia 0 – 100 Hz

General stimulation 700 Hz

Oedema, swellings 1000 Hz

General stimulation 2500 Hz

Inflammations 5000 Hz

Infections 10,000 Hz

more info = http://www.mdfrontiers.com/files/articles/malini chaudri & jan tuner on lllt - coherence journal 4.pdf

 

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Zone

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# 74 ]

February 08, 2011, 05:11 AM

Hi jdp710,

Yes good post mate – I found the link to the various frequencies you posted also, certainly makes for good reading and am sure that there will be considerable research in this area in the future. What are you using to pulse your lasers?

As for the frequencies that I am planning to use I am actually planning to use the 8.967Khz (posted by Frantoli) for my hair loss helmet using 650nm lasers. The 1Khz post that you are referring to is actually for a fat loss laser that I am also attempting to make based on the Zerona technology using 635nm lasers. Follow this link and if you read it all you will find the high level specifications for the laser:
http://www.busylightclinic.ca/promotional-offers/zerona-clinical-research/

And this link gives you a bit more detail:
http://www.lapexbcspro.com/pdf/fat-liquefaction-effects-of-lll-energy-on-adipose-tissue.pdf

Or check out the thread from OMG on this:
http://www.worldhairloss.org/index.php/forums/viewthread/176

 

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Marty_mcfly

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# 75 ]

February 10, 2011, 06:57 PM

Hi

Surely it wouldn’t be that hard to set up a function generator (or other type of oscillator) and then amplify the signal with a current amplifier (like what is used in an induction loop) and you’d have all the power you need for a helmet?

Also what is the best wave shape for the pulses- a square or a sine wave of does it matter?

Now if only id paid attention in my electronics degree!

Phil

 

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Rosariorose9

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# 76 ]

February 13, 2011, 01:04 PM

I recollect that this has been touched on before, but I cannot remember the answer, so I’ll ask it again.  Do the Gaunitz units use focused or unfocused diodes?

 

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Frantoli

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# 77 ]

February 13, 2011, 10:36 PM

Rosariorose9,
The laser diodes are focused.

I was checking out the Erchonia website (the makers of Gaunitz’s lasers), and for their applications there appears to be different setting of frequencies for what one wants to obtain (losing fat, muscle stimulation, wound healing, etc).  I’m beginning to deduct that we need to focus on the frequency rather than the pulsing.  Anyone in on the same conclusion?  How hard would this be to do?

 

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Rosariorose9

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# 78 ]

February 14, 2011, 12:04 AM

Thanks for the response, Frantoli.  I continue to wonder whether we’ve made a mistake by removing the focusing lenses on our helmets…

 

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Lapwing

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# 79 ]

February 14, 2011, 02:25 AM

Frantoli,

By frequency, do you mean how many sessions per week?  Or do you mean frequency as in Hertz?  I thought the answer on Hertz was pretty much settled on a wavelength of 630 to 660 nm for hair loss (I am using wavelength since freq = speed of light/wavelength, and most lasers are described in wavelengths). 

And this fat loss scares me.  Does this mean lasers are going to deplete our scalps of fat permanently over time.  That can’t be good in the long run.  I am on the lean side and don’t have that much fat to lose.  Is this llllt fat loss a concern for long-term scalp health?

 

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Zone

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# 80 ]

February 14, 2011, 04:22 AM

Lapwing,
When we are talking frequency we are referring to the pulse frequency not the wavelength of the laser ie a 650nm Laser pulsed at 9Khz. The frequency as posted by Frantoli for our hair loss helmets is around 9Khz and the frequency for fat loss appears to be 1Khz. I say appears because thus far I can only find one reference to this frequency from the Erchonia website. In short I don’t think that there would be a problem pulsing our hair helmets at 9khz (or there about).

Rosariorose9,
I am using a focused laser for fat loss (or am trying to at least) as that appears to be the correct specification based on what I can find so far – I have posed a number of links however here is one reproduced here:
http://www.lapexbcspro.com/pdf/fat-liquefaction-effects-of-lll-energy-on-adipose-tissue.pdf

For my hair helmet I am using diffused lasers – perhaps OMG could comment on why?

For more info on fat loss there is a forum dedicated to the subject at:
http://www.worldhairloss.org/index.php/forums/viewthread/176

Cheers!

 

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# 81 ]

February 14, 2011, 01:18 PM

Zone,

Thanks, but Frantoli said,  “I’m beginning to deduct that we need to focus on the frequency rather than the pulsing.  Anyone in on the same conclusion?”  I am still not sure what frequency he is referring to in this context.

 

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# 82 ]

February 14, 2011, 11:47 PM

Lapwing,
Zone is right.  I’m am talking about the frequency in Hrtz and not nm.  I’m not really sure what the hrtz does, but I know that in the Crown Laser/Erchonia/AB Technologies, they have specifications a 8.967 khrtz and for whatever reason, it amazingly on my hair and I really want to duplicate it.  I think before we figure out the pulsing, maybe we should see if we can reach this hrtz with our lasers.
Do we know what hrtz the lasers we get from Aixiz is?

 

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Lapwing

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# 83 ]

February 15, 2011, 01:41 AM

Thanks, I got you now, Frantoli.  You are talking about the pulsing frequency, which is in hertz and is about 9 kHz as you say.  This is the frequency in which the laser is being pulsed on and off.  The continuos frequency (intrinsic frequency) is about 3x10^8/650x10^-9 = 4.6x10^14 Hz or 460 THz.  It is huge number, which is frequency of red light just as our lasers.

To me pulsing is a frequency and not something separate.  That is why your wording confused me.  Zone said this 9khz should not be a problem.  So we should be in business when someone here gets this worked out. 

 

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Zone

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# 84 ]

February 15, 2011, 04:57 AM

Frantoli,

I believe that the lasers we get from Aixiz are CW (constant wave) lasers meaning there is no pulsing at all and as lapwing posted above the frequency of the CW is the frequency of the light.

 

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Frantoli

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# 85 ]

February 15, 2011, 03:10 PM

So in order to get to just under 9khertz, it needs to be pulsing.  We cannot achieve it with a CW?

 

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Zone

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# 86 ]

February 16, 2011, 04:07 AM

That’s right Frantoli.

 

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jpmarko

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# 87 ]

February 19, 2011, 03:56 AM

By the way guys, just wanted to clarify that when we talk about the frequency we wanna pulse our lasers at, what that really refers to is the frequency at which we turn that laser on and off. So, at a frequency of 9 kHtz we are pulsing the laser, aka turning it on and off, 9 thousand times per second. It’s so fast that the on and off action is undetectable to the human eye. Frequency has nothing to do with wavelength or the innate specifications of the laser.

When I spoke to Dr. Maricle a year ago about pulsing HIS 655 nm 5 mW laser diodes, he said that if you can find a function generator or something to do it, then they would work fine. There isn’t a reason they won’t. They fit the specifications. They just need to be pulsed by a computer or power supply or function generation or something.

 

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Zone

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# 88 ]

February 24, 2011, 03:56 AM

A quick update.

I have been trying to get help with the pulse circuit from a number of sources and while many people have offered good advice it’s difficult to pull together advice from many different sources so I have taken the problem to the experts. Today I meet with an electrical engineering company here in Sydney specialising in circuit design. They have agreed to take on what is a trivial project from their point of view but important to me. Obviously this is now going to cost me real money however I can’t let this go and have to complete it for my own peace of mind. After our first meeting I now understand why this task is not as easy as I first thought. There are two main issues; firstly current, building the pulse circuit for 50 or 100 lasers is not that much of a problem however when we approach 500 lasers the current draw becomes high enough to create real problems. The second problem is voltage namely finding the right components that can cope with the high current requirements and at the same time operate at a voltage low enough for our lasers.

The current draw problem actually extends beyond the circuit design and into the physical layout of the circuit and components, meaning that while the circuit schematic may be theoretically correct the circuit may not work in the real world unless the physical components and the wires (or PCB) connecting the components is correctly designed to cater for stray capacitance and inductance.

My head was spinning at times when the engineer was explaining it all to me however I am going to see this through.

 

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# 89 ]

February 24, 2011, 09:25 AM

Zone,
Wow, this is fantastic stuff.  I really hope we can replicate at a cheaper cost than $5000 for a 15 diode helmet with the same technology.  To make things as easy as possible, I would just stick with 20 to 50 diodes.  I had HUGE success with a 30 diode helmet from crown laser, in fact they started me out with 15 diodes and it still worked great.  I don’t necessarily believe in the amount of diodes, but instead the technology in the laser.  I’m not technical by any means… but I know what works and what doesn’t.

Please keep giving us a play by play report.

 

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Rosariorose9

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# 90 ]

February 24, 2011, 04:31 PM

Wow, Zone, I’m impressed with your determination.  Anxiously following your progress…

 

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mj

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# 91 ]

February 24, 2011, 06:07 PM

Zone,

Everyone’s efforts on this issue are much appreciated by me, but your determination is simply remarkable….great stuff


Tried a lot of things, never stuck with anything. Don’t do that

 

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# 92 ]

February 28, 2011, 11:19 PM

Hey Zone,
Here is a quick reply from Charles Maricle. 

“The lasers themselves are designed for CW use, any modulation (this is true of the entire industry) would need to be done by the power supply. This is how they all work, there is “no such thing” as an automatically pulsing diode.”

 

 

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Zone

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# 93 ]

March 01, 2011, 04:47 AM

Thanks Frantoli this confirms our comments above.

I have received the first report from the engineering company which contains five recommendations for improvements one of which required some technical clarification of the laser module specifications from Aixiz (also provided by Dr Maricle).

I have now ordered the recommended components and will rebuild the circuit when they arrive. The engineering company then want to do a review of the new circuit to evaluate the “real world” application of the circuit.

 

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actionreaction

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# 94 ]

March 01, 2011, 07:23 PM

Just wanted to congratulate and totally thank you guys for your efforts here, I usually do all of my research and posting at Immortal’s site, but you’ve given me a big reason to be here as pulsed lasers are the way to go. 

If at all you need any advice or help silencing hair loss internally you know where to find me.


Of a suprahuman immensity in a patch of sand or a raptors guileless shivering intensity, I’m only a visitor,
an atom of atoms on a jutting red splattered synagogue of granite as it crouches literally in space
A frozen amoral giant gazing heavenward, forever

 

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# 95 ]

March 02, 2011, 03:48 AM

Zone—

If it’s expensive, I may be able to help you out with funding a little bit for the pulsed laser circuit.  Contact me at:

nidhogge (at) worldhairloss (dot) org

Great work you’re doing, proud to have all of you on this forum!

 

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Zone

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# 96 ]

March 02, 2011, 05:41 AM

Thanks for the generous offer Nidhogge however as per the email I sent you I am more interested in partnering with someone to test the circuit with a larger rig than my 50 laser helmet.

 

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nyk11

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# 97 ]

March 05, 2011, 06:52 PM

Frantoli, i was wondering what kind of topicals you were using at the Gaunitz clinic that contributed to the initial success.  I just bought a few products from them that seem pretty well designed (the scalp cleanser used in the shower, the detox tea, shampoo)

 

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# 98 ]

March 05, 2011, 10:02 PM

Hey, Guys!

I’m *almost* getting caught up to the point with everything that I can actually get involved in this, by the way.  I just scanned through and see that you guys have done a lot of great work.  Zone… that’s where I left it before -after hearing that a couple of hundred diodes would present a problem, and that there would be all sorts of real world problems that aren’t on the piece of paper you design the circuit on.  I also heard it was a simple matter of money to solve the problem though -BUT, even after it was developed it would still be somewhat cost prohibitive for the end product, and it would take this out of the realm of an “inexpensive” laser device for hair loss.  Hopefully that part was wrong info, though!

-O.M.G.


Build your own Laser Helmet | Laser Brush | Laser Device at OverMachoGrande.com!  The internet’s first, best, and biggest consumer advocate site on laser therapy for hair loss!  It’s time to educate yourself about one of the greatest treatments in FORUM HISTORY…

 

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# 99 ]

March 05, 2011, 10:17 PM

Oh, by the way, to clarify what “cost prohibitive” means, this is how it was explained to me.  Easily, it’d be a few thousand or more to get the pulsing power supply circuit/whatever developed.  AFTER THAT, it’s not like you can say “Yes, I’d like to order ONE please”.  It’d be more like “minimum order is 100 units at X amount a piece” or whatever for anyone to be able to begin to waste their factory time making our product (maybe not 100, but you get the idea).  Also, I was given the ballpark figure of $800 per unit -OUR COST!  I don’t know why it’d be that high (that just sounds way to high for ANYTHING), but hey, I’m going off of what I was told by the only person who gave me an actual ballpark figure.

So, if any of that is true at all and since it’s not an existing product already, it’d have to be something that yes… we did ourselves.  It obviously doesn’t sound easy to make, so it’s going to probably be pretty complex for us.  So, we could probably DO IT, but even if one or two of us would be making it, it’s going to cost some money because I’d imagine it’d be time consuming.

In a couple of years I fully expect to have clinical devices -shit, I even want us to have a brick-and-mortar anti-aging clinic- so maybe I can afford to get all of this built at that point for us, but right now I can’t! lol…

Anyway, I hope that “cost prohibitive” stuff is nonsense, but we’ll see.  It looks like we are heading the same direction as I ended up a couple of years ago.  But hey, I want to be wrong here.


Build your own Laser Helmet | Laser Brush | Laser Device at OverMachoGrande.com!  The internet’s first, best, and biggest consumer advocate site on laser therapy for hair loss!  It’s time to educate yourself about one of the greatest treatments in FORUM HISTORY…

 

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# 100 ]

March 06, 2011, 03:13 AM

Hey OMG,

I think you mostly have it right – I don’t yet know the cost to fully develop the circuit including the PCB design however to date it’s under $1,000. The PCB design will likely be the big one though. 

Right now I am focused on getting a reliable version up and running and then doing some testing to determine if there are any real world benefits for hair growth. Obviously this is the whole point. If I can build a circuit that can pulse our lasers but there are no benefits then there is no point at all. If we can demonstrate benefits then we can consider how best to offer the circuit to members. I agree that this is not going to be easy for the average person to build, at the very least it will require a soldering iron and an oscilloscope to tune the circuit – a multimeter wouldn’t go astray either.

By way of a quick update: I spent Saturday rebuilding the circuit to the new specifications (excluding the new mosfet – using a substitute for now until the recommended one arrives) and I can say that the circuit is now reliable up to about 6khz when the square wave starts to breakdown, mainly because (i think) the capacitor (C1) that I am using needs to be a smaller value – have ordered a few different ones to try – hopefully next weekend will give me some time to try the smaller caps.

 

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# 101 ]

March 07, 2011, 06:02 PM

nyk11,
Initially I used Gaunitz detox tea, finesteride, saw palmetto, scalp cleanser, shampoo and their AM and PM formula.  There was another product that made my scalp really cold and tingly that I used and some other additional vitamins.  After my 9 month regiment with them, I slowly began weening myself off of the products and just relied on the lasers and my hair was still doing fantastic.

 

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nyk11

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# 102 ]

March 10, 2011, 08:38 PM

Frantoli,  thanks for the details. I hate to say it but i would have to think that the fin and the minox play a very large part in this success.  Maybe the lasers helped facilitate the minoxidil?  I wonder how successful we could really be using lasers naturally sometimes.  And i’m also wondering if it would be possible to use minoxidil short term to stimulate the hair growth and somehow keep them with laser usage.

 

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pierre

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# 103 ]

March 26, 2011, 04:25 PM

Hi guys,

I was just wondering if a low frequency generator was good for this or not ?

 

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OverMachoGrande

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# 104 ]

March 26, 2011, 07:38 PM

nyk11 - March 10, 2011, 08:38 PM

I wonder how successful we could really be using lasers naturally sometimes.

VERY, actually.  The vast majority of people that have my helmets are only using laser therapy and that’s it.  I, however, don’t condone that -but most nonforum people aren’t like us and just keep it simple!  Even when I scream at them that they need to be using polysorbate 80!

Obviously, you probably wouldn’t have known that, though, because as we all know the people that post in forums are nowhere close to an accurate slice of the general population!  Since I speak to a ton of people through email I get a little bit bigger picture.

It’s just not accurate to think that laser clinic success comes from minox, and when I used to hear regularly from clinic owners/workers/goers (I don’t have a lot of time to chit chat anymore), the trend was that they were steering people away from it.  If it works, GREAT!  ...but while it may technically add to hair count, general appearance of hair often suffers, and that doesn’t make clients happy at all.  Lord knows I hated the greasy crap…

-O.M.G.


Build your own Laser Helmet | Laser Brush | Laser Device at OverMachoGrande.com!  The internet’s first, best, and biggest consumer advocate site on laser therapy for hair loss!  It’s time to educate yourself about one of the greatest treatments in FORUM HISTORY…

 

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Zone

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# 105 ]

April 01, 2011, 06:39 PM

Hey everyone,

It’s been a while since I posted so thought I would give a quick update:
As per my last post, I was having trouble with the frequency range of the circuit and the square wave at around 6Kh. Changing the timer capacitor addressed the frequency problem however the square wave was still breaking down and I had to go back to the engineer for help with that one. Turned out to be the comparator breaking down at higher frequencies so we hunted around for a few different options and eventually found a couple of potential candidates. I ordered three different options and two of those worked quite well. I then conducted load testing with my helmet (50 lasers) and that also worked well!

Ok before we get to excited there are still a few issues – frequency lock seems to be a problem, in that the frequency seems to drift around a bit and secondly I haven’t tested the circuit under higher load conditions and that will be my next focus. I want to make sure that the circuit can cope with our full load of 500 lasers. As for the frequency lock problem I plan to take this back to my engineer as it’s just not good enough for general use at this stage.

Zone.

 

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mj

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# 106 ]

April 01, 2011, 06:49 PM

wow…great stuff dude….what do you think the cost would be for someone to replicate your device?  I only have 80 diodes so I think it would work as well as it did on yours.


Tried a lot of things, never stuck with anything. Don’t do that

 

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Rosariorose9

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# 107 ]

April 01, 2011, 09:24 PM

Zone, you are DEFINITELY a trailblazer.

 

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pierre

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# 108 ]

April 02, 2011, 05:11 AM

Hi Zone,

just wanna ask you, what do you think about my idea using low generator frequency use to get 9000 Hz ?

Do you think is good enought in power supply for all those diodes wired ?

How can we monitor the frequency output of your circuit if we get one ?

How many amps can it supports ?

 

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pierre

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# 109 ]

April 02, 2011, 05:17 AM

Back to thread :

1°)Is there any experiment comparing 635nm vs 650nm ??
2°)Considering 650nm is the best, is 9000 Hz the best frequency using the 650nm wave length ?

 

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Zone

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# 110 ]

April 02, 2011, 06:24 AM

Pierre,
If you go back far enough in this thread you will note that I have already tried a function generator which is essentially what you are suggesting and yes it will work with a small number of lasers but not with the numbers we need – reason being, the current is just too high for a function generator we need something that is specifically designed to switch at high current.

mj
If you look at my earlier posts back when I thought this was going to be easy I had some very optimistic views on how much it would cost to build ourselves. That was several $1,000 dollars ago and a whole lot of time and effort. Maybe I am just stubborn (that’s what my wife says anyway) but I do what to complete what I started. As for cost to build yourself, that is a very hard question to answer as you would need the following before you even start:
Multimeter
Soldering iron
Oscilloscope
Various tools
A lot of patience – it takes me a whole day to make up a prototype and I have done this many times now and really know what I am doing
Some basic electronics knowledge or practical experience – many of the components are small and soldering them is not for a beginner – that said once you know what you are doing it’s not that difficult.

The equipment alone could cost $200 or more.  Apart from all that I don’t believe that I have settled on the final design at this stage. I want to address the frequency drift and do the “real” load testing.

 

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pierre

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# 111 ]

April 02, 2011, 11:09 AM

Ok I just looked into the thread and it’s what I was thinking about ; difficult to get a frequency generator that provide enough Amps !

I was looking the power supply output of your Oscilloscope, and it’s seems that diodes can work with negative voltage !!!
I was thinking in other way like working :
in a 3,3 Volts amplitude
with an 3,3 Volts upper offset

wich could allow to just work on positive voltage, what about laser diodes specifications about working alternatively ?

 

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Zone

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# 112 ]

April 02, 2011, 05:48 PM

Hi pierre,
I think you are reading the picture incorrectly, my circuit is not working with negative voltages, basically what it is doing is taking an input voltage of 7V and switching between 7V and 0V with each voltage representing half of the waveform in other words a 7V peak to peak square wave with a 50% duty cycle. This equates to 3.5v RMS which is what our diodes need. (the line in the middle of the wave form left of screen is the trigger voltage I set to measure frequency – assuming this is what confused you).

What you have suggested is possible but would represent the upper limits of the diodes tolerance, assuming that is that you are proposing a 50% duty cycle. The RMS equitant of your suggestion would be 3.3 + 3.3 * 0.5 which equates to 4.95v RMS. The lasers could cope with 5v RMS but not sure if I would be pushing them that hard.

 

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Frantoli

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# 113 ]

April 02, 2011, 11:27 PM

Zone,
I was hoping you were still working on this and I’m glad you are making waves.  Again, I think we really only need to worry about 35 to 60 diodes.  500 is way too many as I can see.  I hate to keep going back to the Gaunitz days, but they only had 35 diode helmets and I did it twice a week… it was absolutely amazing for what it did to my hair. That is just my input and it would probably keep the research and cost down quite a bit.
Most importantly Zone… have you been able to get your head underneath you helmet while conducting these test?  If so, what do you think?  Is it the missing link that we’ve been searching for?

Thanks again for the hard work.

 

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OverMachoGrande

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# 114 ]

April 02, 2011, 11:37 PM

Hey, Frantoli…

Look, I appreciate your excitement about this, but you don’t know what you’re talking about saying “500 is too many”.  I know you aren’t privy to all of my HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS of customers’ feedback like I am, but we have actually tested all sorts of diodes and configurations over the years, and what most every single one of us have found is much different than what you are saying. Also, I have about a dozen former Gaunitz customers that I know about, and they don’t say the same thing that you do. 

So, stay enthused, but don’t tell us our business like that.  We have reasons to think like we do.


Build your own Laser Helmet | Laser Brush | Laser Device at OverMachoGrande.com!  The internet’s first, best, and biggest consumer advocate site on laser therapy for hair loss!  It’s time to educate yourself about one of the greatest treatments in FORUM HISTORY…

 

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Zone

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# 115 ]

April 03, 2011, 02:26 AM

Frantoli,

I am with OMG on the number of diodes mate – there is no way I would be spending so much time and money if I thought it would work just as well with 50-60 diodes.

And yes I have been using it on myself. I am somewhat reluctant to post about my results, firstly because it’s early days and secondly because I don’t want to seem biased, which I probably am.

To answer the question however, I have been using the pulse circuit as part of my normal treatment program (3 times per week 20 minutes) for about 13 days now, for the first week or so I didn’t really notice anything then I noticed that my scalp started to get itchy at the treatment sites – this itchiness has been noticeable after the last 2 treatments (usually the next day). I am taking this as a good sign, but maybe I just want it to work. Bottom line is that this needs to be validated by others and as soon as I get it working to my satisfaction that will be the focus.

 

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jdp710

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# 116 ]

April 03, 2011, 02:41 AM

I have to agree with OMG here.  Very important to say.  I’ve personally built a dozen helmet and hood designs looking for what will give the best in results. 

I personally started with a 6 laser brush used for about 15 minutes a couple times a week and didn’t see anything.  Then went up to using the same brush for a couple hours at a time and realized that there might be something with LLLT but the info was all wrong and read as much as I could on the subject. Read up about joules and how we need a specific window of opportunity so to speak.  More about this later.  This was all back in late 2007. 

In 2008 I went up the ladder.  I built a helmet device with only 30 lasers but this wasn’t enough.  Then 67 lasers and still not enough.  Then built devices that I could rotate around my head to give the equivalent of 200 lasers and that’s when everything just started.  That’s when a light bulb went off in my head.  That’s when I told as many as I could that LLLT works and works very well!  Not just that but works very well to help with gray hair as well!

I later built helmets and hoods with and without the focusing lens with 200 - 600 lasers. 

In short, 600 lasers works better than 500 lasers!.  500 lasers works better than 400 lasers.  400 lasers works better than 300 lasers.  So essentially the more lasers the better.  In fact, and this is important to say, one day I’m going to build a a helmet with 1,500 or whatever lasers to hit every square cm of my head.  So that every square cm of my head is bathed in laser light.  Well, that is when I hit the lottery. 

The point is while the number of lasers sounds intimidating, it really isn’t when you realize how LLLT works.  LLLT works by the amount of joules you recieve in that specific spot you’re irradiating.  You see, that one laser shinning down on a specific spot is dependent on how long that spot is irradiated.  So again, the joules calculation is dependent on time, not by how many lasers are shinning around that area.    When one finally understands how joules are calculated, one will finally understand that the number of lasers “will never” give a negative results with LLLT.  Period.  In fact, will only give greater benefits.

Here is the kicker though.  Why would more lasers give greater results.  Here’s why.  Besides irradiating problem areas, it’s also about the laser blood irradiation benefits.  I could post all day about the laser blood irradiation benefits and most are dumbfounded when they read studies about it.  The benefits are so vast but some benefits such as hypertension, heart disease, diabetes, etc..  At one time, the benefits were so vast that there was a joke that LLLT will do everything but work on herpes, lol.  Actually, I did a quick google search showing LLLT benefits on herpes, lol. 

The huge array of benefits is what causes some people to ridicule LLLT as they believe it must all be hype.  Nothing gives such broad benefits.  Fortunately it is true.  One of the main reasons why is the laser blood irradiation benefits.  You get enough laser light to your veins and capillaries and you’ll get tremendous benefits.  This is one of the main secrets of these large number of lasers in helmets and hoods.  You get LLLT in a large enough of an area and you’ll get superior laser blood irradiation benefits. 

Course you don’t have to believe me.  You can start small and work your way up as I did.  The information is all readily available on the internet.  The LLLT info and secrets is everywhere.

One may say, well if OMG helmet has so many lasers how come nobody else does.  Of course they do!  One of the biggest misconceptions there is. There are other makers that have just as many and just as many mW is their devices.  One hood device has 400 that I’ve seen.  Another laser clinic advertised 500 or so 5 mW lasers in their hood back in 2009.  Konftec even has LLLT hair loss hoods that have just as many mW as OMG’s.  Course with other devices you’re going to pay a very large amount of money for their device.  Unafforadable amount of money actually.  Beyond that, it’s also about marketing and they are unable to with their device.  It took a great amount of understanding how joules are calculated and took a great amount of work to find a design that allows for so many lasers.  It is actually easy to design a helmet with a small amount of lasers.  However, it’s extremely hard creating a design that allows for so many lasers. 


So again, the short answer it’s not the amount of lasers you have but the amount of joules.  The large number of lasers is to irradiate every square cm as possible as the benefits only translate to the area that is irradiated and not so much the surrounding areas.  Anything left over you’ll get a huge bonus for the laser blood irradiation benefits. 

hope this helps and clears up any confusion about LLLT

 

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pierre

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# 117 ]

April 03, 2011, 07:15 AM

@zone :

You said that you’re actually trying Laser pulsed system on your scalp, but did you experiment this all other your scalp or did you try to split it on a specifically area unceasing the laser continuous beam on the other ?
Like using pulsed on the right temple and continuous on the left temple ?


edit : orthography almost… smile

 

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Zone

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# 118 ]

April 04, 2011, 05:34 AM

hi pierre,

no I haven’t tried that - I am using it in an all or nothing context. Good idea however.

I think that in fairness the validation of this really needs to be performed by people other than me.

 

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pierre

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# 119 ]

April 04, 2011, 06:30 AM

I agree, but when will you think release the circuit for 500 diodes ?
Do you think it’s a 3 months job, 6, more ?

 

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Frantoli

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# 120 ]

April 04, 2011, 01:18 PM

OMG,
There was absolutely no disrespect intended for my posting.  You’ve done a fantastic job getting us together to combat hair loss.  And yes, if we can get the lasers pulsed correctly with 500 diodes, it would be amazing.  The reason why I suggest 30 to 60 diodes, because it sounded as though Zone was running into some issues and you had mentioned trying to do this a year ago and ran into issues with the amount of diodes.  Again… sorry.

Zone, when I was using the pulsed diodes from Crown Laser and Erchonia this is what I noticed and it was almost immediately:
- Shedding vanished immediately,
- Scalp felt more spongy, stronger and over all much healthier
- Oily hair decreased immediately
- Hair was more vibrant and had more body and the texture felt healthier almost immediately.
- There was absolutely no itching.  In fact my itchy scalp vanished completely.

Have you had any of this happen when testing the new pulsed lasers?

 

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gcdante

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# 121 ]

April 06, 2011, 12:35 PM

Hey,

  So I’ve been MIA for a while, but here’s my two cents. 

  If you’re going to build a pulsed laser system for 500 lasers, I’d say good luck and god bless.  That’s an endeavour that is going to be fun.

  As for me, I’ve been mostly playing around with circuit designs to pulse 100mW-500mW lasers.  They are readily available and easy/cheap to build.

  The way I envision pulsed lasers for hair loss is as a compliment to CW laser treatment.  I’m talking to some people around my department about building a hand-held device that would be about 500mW to 1W spread over 10 square inches.  Portable, powerful, cheap, and fun for the entire family.

  Coincidentally… I sourced my lasers by ripping them out of Samsung and Toshiba DVD-RWs in broken computers around the university.

—G

 

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gcdante

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# 122 ]

April 06, 2011, 02:04 PM

Oh, and if you want to play around with 5V pulse drivers for high-powered LEDs or laser diodes, search here - http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=m570&_nkw=pulse+driver

  You can find out-of-the-box 5V pulse drivers dirt cheap on Ebay.

 

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pierre

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# 123 ]

April 06, 2011, 03:14 PM

Seems to be not enough powered for 500 diodes.

 

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Zone

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# 124 ]

April 07, 2011, 05:05 AM

Hey gcdante,

Yes you can build something capable of driving 50-100 lasers relatively easily however when current requirements approach 8-10 amps that all changes. Those circuits on ebay could really only cope with 100 lasers tops. Before I decided to spend all this time (and money) solving the problem I did look around for existing pulse drive circuits and did find this company:

http://www.avtechpulse.com/

They do make devices that can cope with the current that we require unfortunately however their drivers are VERY expensive ie thousands of dollars. An additional benefit of the circuit that I am building is that it is specifically designed to meet our requirements with respect to voltage, current, frequency and lasers.


Frantoli,
I don’t think I will comment further on the benefits that I am noticing.

Pierre,
Hopefully in the 3 mths time frame.

 

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gcdante

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# 125 ]

April 07, 2011, 12:00 PM

Hey Zone!

  I keep forgetting that not everybody can walk down the hallway and steal a $25,000 Keithley setup from the undergraduate lab here and start testing pulse circuits for fun.

  Hey - why don’t you PM me some of the specs you’re looking for?  I’m finally not MIA and I have a lot of engineering friends.  I’m telling you… we are ALL ABOUT the “ghetto” circuit builds. More than 8-10Amps? Shit, son, constant amperage ain’t no thang!  It’s constant voltage that scares the hell out of me.

  Have you toyed around with much higher frequency pulses than 9KHz?  Because where I’m from, that’s pretty low for optical devices.  I’m used to megahertz and up.

  If worse comes to worse and I can’t help you generalize something, I could probably find a broken pulse driver in the basement of computer engineering that they’d want me to take off of their hands and send it to you as a victory trophy.

—G

 

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Frantoli

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# 126 ]

April 10, 2011, 11:06 AM

gcdante and Zone,
I took a look at both of the websites you recommended for the function generators.  I want to test a cluster of 20 635nm lasers and another cluster of 20 650nm lasers that I have lying around.  I’m going to take pierre’s approach and testing each on one side of my head and photograph the results.
With these function generators, is it as easy as it looks?  Plug in my negative and positive wires, turn on and crank up the pulsing to just over 9khz?  Is there one you would recommend for ease and cost effective.
I’m not too technical, so a bit of help would be great.
I’m really looking forward to see if I can achieve the same results as I have in the past.

Thanks,
Frantoli

 

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pierre

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# 127 ]

April 10, 2011, 11:24 AM

That’s a good question about wiring, because I don’t know about zone’s work, does he pulse between 0 and 3 Volts or between 3 Volts and -3 Volts ?
Is wiring our helmets inverting negative and positive wires could hurt diodes ?

 

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Zone

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# 128 ]

April 11, 2011, 05:13 AM

Pierre,

I already answered this question (see post on 2/4/2011) – I don’t drive the lasers into negative voltage. Once you start pulsing the diodes It’s all about RMS voltage, which (if you use a 50% duty cycle) is calculated as half of the peak to peak voltage, thus I am using around 7V peak to peak which equates to 3.5V RMS. I have discussed this with Aixiz and they have provided details of the diodes full operating range and have confirmed that this configuration will work well.

NB: If you use something other than a 50% duty cycle then you need to calculate area under the curve to convert to RMS voltage. I would advise caution with this approach.

Frantoli,
Before you start pulsing your lasers (and potentially damaging them) I would get a test load, a simple torch bulb would do and connect an oscilloscope to the circuit output to confirm the exact parameters that you will be exposing to your diodes. Once you are happy with the drive then connect your lasers one at a time while monitoring the output with your oscilloscope.

 

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Zone

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# 129 ]

May 19, 2011, 05:18 AM

Hi guys,

Time for an update.

Firstly a quick recap from early April “a combination of getting the correct value for the timer capacitor and an improved comparator resulted in an operational circuit that was capable of driving 50 lasers at 9KHz.” Since then I have been doing load testing and discovered that the circuits limit was about 140 lasers. At the 140 laser point the comparator could no longer cope with the gate current of the fet, so I went back to the engineering company and asked for some more help. They basically told me that ad hoc help is not something they are interested in, so I either resolve the remainder of the issues myself (and they gave me some pointers) or give them this as an entire project including PCB design and prototype development.

So armed with the pointers that they gave me I added a special fet drive chip into the circuit, effectively creating a multistage drive circuit. This along with a few other minor modifications did the trick and I am very happy to report that the circuit can now cope with 500 lasers!!

I very big thank you to OMG for providing the lasers for my test rig!

Unfortunately it’s not all good news, the circuit still has two big issues, namely frequency stability and spiking on the square wave. The former may degrade the biostimulation effect of the pulsing and the latter may damage the lasers so both issues must be addressed. I therefore decided to hand this over to the engineering company as a project and they will develop the circuit to my exact requirements. This actually happened sometime ago, however I have been waiting for them to have time to schedule in the work. They were due to start a couple of weeks ago but something came up and I got bumped, hopefully things will get back on track in the next couple of weeks.

Cheers,
Zone.

 

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Lapwing

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# 130 ]

May 19, 2011, 01:08 PM

Zone,

That is awesome, thanks for the update and all your hard work!

 

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pierre

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# 131 ]

May 21, 2011, 06:02 AM

Hi zone, did you test pulsed laser like I told you as a protocol ; meaning using pulsed laser on right temples and continuous beam on the other to experiment or not a difference in-vivo !!!

keep up the good work man.

 

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Zone

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# 132 ]

May 21, 2011, 07:17 PM

Hi pierre,

No I haven’ tried that yet. I have actually stopped using my own device for now as I think the frequency drift may affect the results so will wait until the remaining problems are resolved.

 

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tonyb

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# 133 ]

May 24, 2011, 12:13 PM

I am really enjoying this dialog and the ingenuity and pioneer spirit I am seeing. I would love to do some experimenting on my own and I was wondering if someone can explain in detail how to make a pulsed laser unit to me. Even if you can only drive 30-50 lasers, I would love to make one to experiment with. Off the shelf components would be the best suggestions, along with the ability to vary the frequency would be an excellent option. Thanks so much for all the help anyone is able to provide for me. When I make one, I will post my tests and results here to help share with all as well to help give back to those that helped me. Thanks again!

T

 

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Zone

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# 134 ]

May 28, 2011, 11:26 PM

Hi Tony,

There is quite a lot of work in answering your question – if you are into DIY then a background in electronics is par for the course mate. Unfortunately my circuit is not going to cut it so have handed it to the experts. If you want to play around yourself then I think gcdante posted the best advice on the 6/4/2011 (above) where he identified some very cheap PWM circuits designed as motor speed controllers. These circuits would probably be fine for driving 50 – 100 lasers. Suggest that you get one of those a multimeter, an oscilloscope and give it a go.

 

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Zone

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# 135 ]

July 01, 2011, 05:31 AM

Hey guys, time for another update.

It been a busy time since my last update and I am very happy to say that the engineering company has completed the design of our pulse circuit including the PCB. We have also built a couple of prototypes and are in the process of them now! See attached PCB picture - it’s quite a leap from my little homemade version.

If you remember from my post back in May one of the big issues was frequency drift and this has been resolved by the use of a microprocessor that contains an internal frequency reference. There is also a filter network to help with all the inductance generated by the wiring looms of our helmets. You can see that there is provision on the PCB for 3 of those huge black filter capacitors – initial testing suggests that one will be sufficient with no real additional benefits by adding in the other two however we need to do more testing before that can be validated.

Given that we needed to add in a microprocessor, this also introduced the opportunity to add in other features and make a more user friendly and feature rich device. The final functional specification is as follows:

• The circuit has been designed to the Axiz laser’s specifications
• Capable of pulsing five hundred 3V 5mW Axiz lasers
• Backwards compatible with OMG’s laser messiah or any homemade version thereof (as long as 3V lasers were used)
• Microprocessor controlled
• The microprocessor requires software and is programmed during the manufacturing process
• The circuit has three different modes, each mode represents a different pulse frequency
• There is a power switch and a mode switch a green power LED and three blue mode LED’s to indicate the selected mode frequency
• The circuit incorporates a timer and will automatically shut down after 20 minutes
• There is a buzzer that indicates the start and the end of a session and mode selection
• The circuit includes over current protection and will automatically shut down if shorted out
• The PCB design is quite sophisticated and includes many EMC counter measures
• The PCB and circuit will be encased in a bespoke housing with labelling for all connections and switches
• The circuit requires a separate power supply and will not work with the 3V power supplies currently used by many of you. The circuit requires about 7.5V but will work right up to 9V (10 Amps).

Obviously this little project has become considerably more sophisticated than I originally anticipated, as you can see most of the components are surface mount and the micro requires software loading. It became pretty clear during the design sessions with the engineering company that the final product was not going to be something that could be easily made in a DIY sense. I therefore began the investigations into manufacturing this circuit for you. I am now very close to finalising suppliers. Building the prototypes has given me the opportunity to evaluate the quality of PCBs suppliers and components and lead times. I am very happy to say that the PCBs are extremely high quality as are all the components! The engineering company I have been working with are quite conservative so all components have been over specified meaning that the final product is going to be of a very high standard. I am also working with a laptop power supply manufacturer to source a power supply that meets our requirements – the power supply that I have sourced is an 8V 12Amp unit. If however you have a power supply that meets the above requirements you could use your own.

I very much subscribe to the philosophy of this site and therefore really wanted to develop a DIY pulse circuit that you could make yourselves, unfortunately I was a little naïve, as when it comes to 500 lasers, complexity increases significantly. Nevertheless I want to see this through and the best option I believe is to get the unit manufactured for you. My goal now is to make this technology available to people like us. I have been working hard to keep costs (and therefore price) as low as possible, please keep in mind however that volume is what drives price in the manufacturing game and I only have the resources to fund very small manufacturing runs. At this stage I hope to have the final product available sometime in August (all going well). Obviously this has cost me a lot of money now and I may never see a return, as I really don’t know if any of you are interested in buying one of these. On the up side however, over the last 6 months I have proven that it is possible, with the right configuration, (and determination) to pulse 500 lasers!

I plan to have a basic web site up and running in August where you will be able to buy the finished product! Will post the details when it’s up and running. I would also like to say a very big thank you to OMG for all his support, help and encouragement over the past several months.

Image Attachments  New_Pulse_Circuit.jpg

 

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pierre

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# 136 ]

July 01, 2011, 06:53 AM

Hi Zone, this is just wonderful !!!
What are the different pulsating frequencies ?
You mean that we should change our power supplies transformers ?
Actually I think that many people got the 3.3V 20A, but on the aixiz website I can’t see any 7,5 Volt supply :
http://www.aixiz.com/store/index.php/cPath/51/
How many should be the cost of the final product ?
Did you tried what I told you half-pulsed and continuous beam on the over part of the head ?

 

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Lapwing

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# 137 ]

July 01, 2011, 12:31 PM

Zone, you are a stud!  That is freaking awesome.  I will definitely be interested in buying this.

 

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Rosariorose9

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# 138 ]

July 01, 2011, 01:38 PM

I am ABSOLUTELY on board with this!! Keep us apprised…

 

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NDW

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# 139 ]

July 02, 2011, 03:19 AM

After all the trash talk about Gaunitz people on this forum have come together to pulse lasers to his exact specs! Hahaha

Any idea about price?

 

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jkenn

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# 140 ]

July 02, 2011, 09:58 PM

Now the search for the 7+ volt power supply begins!

 

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teaman

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# 141 ]

July 03, 2011, 03:10 PM

Good work Zone

 

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jpmarko

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# 142 ]

July 04, 2011, 12:05 AM

A BIG THANK YOU to you, Zone.

What is the estimated cost?

 

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mj

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# 143 ]

July 04, 2011, 08:54 AM

Zone, I only have an 80 unit device so I’m not sure your creation is right for me, but that being said your work on this issue has been truly amazing.  Thank you for your drive and dedication.  I believe pulsed is the way to go,  though it may take many months to see progress and the final results may still be controversial as to whether there’s a noticeable difference….but I’m definitely looking forward to hearing the stories a year from now!

well done dude!


Tried a lot of things, never stuck with anything. Don’t do that

 

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NDW

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# 144 ]

July 05, 2011, 01:23 AM

mj- 500 diodes is the maximum, it will still work with 80 diodes. Even though you dont use and OMG Laser Messiah you can still pulse as long as your diodes are similar spec to aixiz diodes.

 

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mj

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# 145 ]

July 05, 2011, 03:40 PM

NDW…true but I remember someone posting about equipment on ebay that will pulse smaller devices like mine at a fairly cheap price compared to what I’m sure this one will go for. I’ll have to find it again though.  Not that i’m knocking this device in any way, it’s amazing, I think it’s just way more than what is needed for a smaller laser device like mine.


Tried a lot of things, never stuck with anything. Don’t do that

 

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NDW

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# 146 ]

July 05, 2011, 07:08 PM

mj what frequency does the device you’re talking about pulse at? What is the cost?

 

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Zone

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# 147 ]

July 06, 2011, 04:59 AM

Hi guys,

Thanks for the support and questions! Will have a go at answering them all.

Frequency
I found quite a bit of research on this topic. The research that I found suggests the following frequency responses:
• 1 - 100 Hz Pain, neuralgia
• 700 Hz General Stimulation
• 1,000 Hz Oedema, Swelling
• 5,000 Hz Inflammations
• 9,000 Hz Statistically significant immune modulating effect
• 10,000 Hz Infections

Interesting to note the 9Khz immune stimulating response. Given that our bodies are biological systems I doubt they would distinguish between 8.9Khz and 9Khz so I suspect that this particular immune response also happens to be good for hair growth. In addition to the above research there is some suggestion that the human body eventually adjusts to any form of external stimulus, so in order to maximise results you should adjust the stimulus from time to time and this is another way that pulsing our lasers could help. Basically the recommendation seems to be that using different frequencies over time can help to boost results, thus there appears to be at least two reasons to pulse our lasers. Based on this research, in addition to our preferred frequency (of 8.9Khz), I chose 700hz and 2.5Khz as the other mode frequencies, basically because of their good general stimulation properties. Additionally these three frequencies provide a good cross section of high, medium and low frequency coverage which may help with the mixing it up theory.

Number of Lasers
NDW is absolutely on the money with this one – the circuit self regulates current, meaning that you can pulse a single laser if you want, or any number of lasers right up to 500! A key design principle was that the circuit needed to be backwards compatible with existing helmets out there, as long as they use 3V Aixiz lasers.

Power Supply
Jkenn – while you could source your own 7.5V – 9V power supply if you wish, I have sourced a Laptop style (fully encased) power supply, its specifications are 8V 12Amp. I already have a sample and have been using it to do all the validation testing of the prototype. Am happy to say that it performs very well. Pricing is not confirmed however am expecting somewhere around $35 (AUD). I will offer the pulse circuit for sale either as a standalone product (and you can source your own power supply) or packaged with my laptop power supply.

Motor speed devices for PWM
Hi mj – I would encourage investigation into some of those motor speed controllers. I had a look at them a few months back before committing thousands of dollars to an engineering company and I felt that they weren’t optimal, but someone may prove me incorrect. I would recommend that you get an oscilloscope and a multimeter and I would keep the following criteria in mind for your assessment: voltage, current, frequency and duty cycle. The peak to peak voltage and duty cycle will be important for your RMS voltage calculations from which you can derive RMS power of the laser output when pulsed, obviously this is critical to determine the joules that you will deliver. This is also one of the main reasons why I incorporated a timer into my circuit that automatically shuts down the circuit once the correct dosage of laser light has been delivered. This guarantees that you get the correct dose, ie you don’t under do it or over do it. It can however be a lot of fun to do it yourself mj not to mention rewarding – I certainly had fun, I also had a few headaches truth be told.

Price
Pricing is not yet finalised, I am working hard to negotiate supply contracts however it is taking longer than I had hoped. The main challenges at this point are:
• volume, I really don’t know how much demand there will be for this product so that makes it very hard to commit to high volumes. That said I need to commit to something, I just hope that I am not going to be stuck with a room full of these babies.

• EMC testing – the circuit has been designed with about 5 or 6 different valid combinations for the filter network and I need to submit the circuit for independent lab testing to land on the optimum combination. The final combination will determine the final component list and also drive the assembly costs. Even with the professionals doing the design it’s impossible to calculate the optimum combination mainly because our helmets are wired in a way that makes them one very big inductor and the behaviour of that inductor can’t be modelled.

• Housing art work and ventilation design are not yet finalised. Pulsing 500 lasers is going to generate a bit of heat so we need to ensure that the case is adequately ventilated. We have come up with three different designs and I now need to make up these cases and soak test the different options to land on the best variant.

Business name and web site
I have set up a business based here in Sydney Australia, my business name is Spectralight. The web site is under construction now and will be found at www.spectralight.com.au will post an update as soon as it’s available.

Zone.

 

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tonyb

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# 148 ]

July 20, 2011, 12:13 PM

Zone,

I was thinking that you may wish to have one of the frequencies at 1000 Hz as that is what one laser system uses for weight loss and that might open up the desirability of your frequency modulator to a larger group of people. I know that I am very interested in your product and would purchase one or more as long as the price is not astronomical.

Thanks for your hard work!
T

 

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# 149 ]

July 21, 2011, 05:02 AM

Hey Tony,

What I am currently trying to do is make a product that is specifically designed for the hair regrowth industry and in particular for people like us that are looking for low cost and realistic options. As such I am focusing on frequencies that can be backed up by research. Both 700hz & 2,500hz have been shown to deliver good general stimulation properties. While I have not been able to find any research specifically about 8.9Khz there is however strong research on 9Khz which may explain why 8.9Khz is good for us.

As for 1000hz I have found only one reference to this in relation to fat loss and no research that backs it up, that said I have posted about this frequency before and am interested in exploring the possibilities further at some point.

Naturally I want to appeal to as many people as possible however am not sure that we should trade what might be good for hair growth to a frequency that may be good for a completely different application. That said, if you feel strongly enough I could explore the possibility with my manufacturing company of providing “custom” frequencies for some customers. Basically this would require a relatively small change to the firmware for the microprocessor. The only problem being that the manufacturing process is obviously designed around repeating the exact same process for each unit and this is how we keep the costs down.

 

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jpmarko

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# 150 ]

July 22, 2011, 03:19 AM

Zone, so you gonna make it 8.967 Khz on the dot or 9 or 8.9? Probably will have a similar effect either way. Is there any research indicating 8.967 Khz, which Gaunitz used, is preferred? Just wondering.

 

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Zone

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# 151 ]

July 22, 2011, 04:53 AM

Good question jpmarko.

The short answer is that we will deliver at least 8.9Khz with no frequency drift.

The long answer is that this is a function of the microprocessor’s firmware and the reference frequency that is used. As a result of extensive testing we are still tweaking a few parameters in the firmware – should be completed very soon. Once the firmware is complete and we have retested to our satisfaction I will post the final details.

 

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pierre

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# 152 ]

July 22, 2011, 07:01 AM

Hi zone did you experiment at last the right temple continuous beam on the hand and the pulsed laser beam on the other ?

 

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Zone

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# 153 ]

July 22, 2011, 07:12 AM

Hi Pierre,

No I haven’t tried that mate. It’s a good idea, although I expect a spill over effect. Basically I have been using my prototype with a Laser Messiah II from OMG and I haven’t modified the helmet in any way.

 

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pierre

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# 154 ]

July 22, 2011, 07:19 AM

So what are the enhancements since you use pulsed lasers system ?

 

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Zone

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# 155 ]

July 22, 2011, 07:36 AM

I have only had a fully functional prototype for about a month pierre and some of that time it’s been over at the engineering company or at the EMC testing lab, so it’s a bit early for me to be touting the results. That said I do believe there is a difference and I do FEEL that there is something to this.

 

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pierre

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# 156 ]

July 26, 2011, 08:04 PM

Ok let’s keep in touch with us, and us more news coming from you smile

 

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Zone

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# 157 ]

July 29, 2011, 08:57 PM

Hey guys,

I have some good news and some bad news. The good news is that our circuit has passed preliminary EMC testing! This is quite a milestone. The lab testing gave us lots of opportunity to analyse and optimise the circuit and this ultimately led to a requirement to make a modification to the PCB in order to optimise the filter circuit. This means that the engineering company need to revise the design and I needed to go back to my PCB manufacturer and get a revised PCB made up in order to build the final prototype. It will be this prototype that will go through the final EMC testing. This has put me back as much as two months and that is the bad news. I am sorry to disappoint on timing however it does mean that the final product will be awesome.

The revised PCB has been ordered and should arrive next week. In the mean time we have been working on some revisions to the microprocessor firmware and this is now ready for the new design. Additionally we have finalised the case design including the optimal ventilation configuration.

 

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Rosariorose9

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# 158 ]

July 30, 2011, 08:50 PM

We’ve waited this long, with little chance that anyone would tackle this complex project.  So, a few more months shouldn’t kill us!  Thanks for your continuing efforts…

 

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tonyb

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# 159 ]

August 04, 2011, 06:36 PM

Yes please keep us updated. Do you have an expected price range for the product? Also would it be very hard to make the switch a 5 position one instead of the three, to incorporate more frequencies?  Just throwing out ideas to make the device more multifunctional.

 

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Zone

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# 160 ]

August 05, 2011, 06:26 AM

Hi Tony,

The switch I am using is not a position switch it is a push style mode switch and each mode is identified by its own mode LED so changing that configuration at this stage is just not possible. This means that we are locked in with three different mode frequencies. I don’t want to make excuses but each mode frequency brings it’s own challenges and it has been very challenging to get the circuit to perform consistently across the spectrum when pulsing 500 lasers, this is one of the reasons for the revised PCB and filter circuit.

I know you’re keen to understand pricing however it’s still a bit premature especially now with the revisions to the PCB and the filter circuit. In fact I haven’t even looked at the impact this will have on costs as yet, as I have been pretty busy following up with the engineering company and my PCB manufacturer and the EMC testing lab not to mention the case manufacturer. Let’s just say that I will be very glad when this all comes together mate!

I’m actually planning to take a few weeks off work very soon to finalise this as the late nights are getting to me and to be honest this is starting to take over my life. There are just so many aspects to pull together it requires more energy than I was expecting – I have to say however that despite challenges I am really enjoying it!

 

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Zone

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# 161 ]

August 13, 2011, 01:57 AM

Hey guys,

Just a very quick update.

The new firmware is complete and tested I can now say that the exact frequency that will be delivered by mode 1 will be 8968.6Hz which is about as good as it gets for frequency accuracy. In order to hit this frequency we needed to add in an external 8Mhz reference crystal, as the micro’s own internal reference is 4Mhz and this wasn’t giving us the kind of accuracy I was wanting. The crystal was always provisioned on the PCB so no changes to the PCB were required. Furthermore adding the reference crystal now means that there is virtually no frequency drift AT ALL. The reference crystal has an accuracy of 30 parts per million which translates to a frequency error margin of 0.003%. If you remember back to the little circuit that I was building myself using a 555 timer, that circuit had a frequency drift of about 5%! We have come a long, long way since then!

I am on annual leave now so will be focusing on this full time. I still have a lot to pull together however I am confident that I will have enough of the picture sorted by next week to finally set price – I will post it here as soon as I know.

 

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Lapwing

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# 162 ]

August 13, 2011, 03:05 AM

That sounds freaking awesome Zone!  I am starting to get renewed hope for this coming year.  My internal regimen is getting more refined, and now I will try pulsed lasers soon, and hey there maybe something else now coming out soon as well.  New regrowth possibilities are coming out!

 

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Zone

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# 163 ]

August 19, 2011, 07:12 PM

Hi guys,
Being on holidays has allowed me to focus on this project fulltime and that has really helped to bring everything together. So I have a lot to share today!

Product name
I have named my product “PulseDrive”. Attached is a finalised mock up image from my casing manufacturer. The case is made from very high quality ABS plastic. I hope you like the design.

Price
This seems to be the most asked question and I have been holding off mainly because of three reasons; firstly the design was not finalised. I am now very happy to report that the production ready prototype based on the new filter circuit design and PCB design has been built and tested and it performs amazingly! I therefore now know the final bill of materials. The second reason is, production volume; I have basically just had to take a leap of faith on this one and am going to build as many as I can afford for the first manufacturing run. The third reason is that 3 out of my 4 suppliers operate in US dollars and the AUD/USD exchange rate has been fluctuating by as much as 10% so that has made it difficult to determine exact costs. Obviously I could add in a margin to cater for exchange rate fluctuations, this is what most companies do, but let’s face it I am not big business and I want to bring this product to you guys at the lowest possible price. OMG has built a real community spirit around WorldHairLoss.org and I have long felt a sense of responsibility to contribute to that. So with that in mind, PulseDrive has been priced on a marginal costing basis, which basically means that I have not included any allocation for the development costs, production volumes or exchange rates into the price, thus the initial price will be about $200 AUD for PulseDrive and $37 AUD for the optional power supply. This price will be limited to the first production run ONLY. Beyond that the price may need to be adjusted depending on exchange rates and ongoing production volumes.

Availability
I have placed orders with all my suppliers now (that’s why I can tell you the price), so I have a pretty good idea on availability also – assuming no supply problems the first PulseDrive units should be available early November (I am sorry that it couldn’t be earlier).

On a final note I just want to say that PulseDrive has been designed to the highest standards, all components are over specified and suppliers have been carefully chosen (with the help of my engineering company) to ensure that quality will be first class. Furthermore PulseDrive has been designed to our exact specifications, meaning that you can connect PulseDrive up to your Aixiz 3V lasers or preferably your “Laser Messiah” and be absolutely confident that you can press one button and deliver exactly 6 joules of laser energy, which is why I can confidently say that at $200 AUD PulseDrive is AMAZING value!

Image Attachments  PulseDrive Case Design.jpg

 

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pierre

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# 164 ]

August 19, 2011, 07:19 PM

Hi zone that is just amazing.
What about “in vivo” test, did you experiment pulsed laser like I asked you on your proper hair ?
What are the results ?
What about the transformer we got delivered with the laser mesiah ; do we have to buy another one or can we plug it to the pulsedrive© smile ?

 

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Zone

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# 165 ]

August 20, 2011, 07:35 PM

Thanks pierre!

Unfortunately your existing 3V power supplies will not work with PulseDrive.

PulseDrive requires at least 7.5V (8V ideally), this is why I have also sourced an 8V 12A power supply which will be optionally available with PulseDrive. However if you have a supply that meets this criteria you could use that instead.

 

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Lapwing

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# 166 ]

August 20, 2011, 09:13 PM

Zone,

Sweet!  I would like to order the PulseDrive plus the optional power supply.  Are you going to have pre-order thing soon or just wait until November when they are near or at completion? 

 

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pierre

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# 167 ]

August 20, 2011, 09:32 PM

Finally you did not ask to my question, did you experiment pulsed lasers on you ?
What are the results ?

 

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Lapwing

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# 168 ]

August 21, 2011, 12:04 AM

Pierre,

I think that is an important question.  I found this old post from jdp710 on this topic:

“And lastly, to talk about pulsed light, I do own quite a lot of LED bulbs that I use for anti aging, wrinkles, etc.. I also own a pulsing led called Talika. While the pulsing led I’ve noticed faster peformance, as opposed to a bulb not pulsing, I don’t believe it’s essential. The reason why I say not essential is because the pulsing led’s are not giving better results but appears to only give faster results.
So here’s what I believe. If you pulse our laser diodes then you aren’t going to regrow more hair, but you’ll get thicker hair faster. That’s my theory at least. In other words, our continuous wave lasers are going to give us x thick hair in 12 months while pulsed lasers will give us x thick hair in 10 months. That’s not much of a big deal for me especially considering that I very much believe that pulsing our lasers will reduce the life expectancy of our lasers dramatically!!!”

So pulsing lasers may not do us long term users any good according to this post.  Plus it may eat up our diodes.  Does anyone know if pulsing does indeed reduce diode lifetimes?

 

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Zone

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# 169 ]

August 21, 2011, 03:09 AM

Hi guys,

I can’t comment on jdp710 efficacy comments I have just been focused on getting PulseDrive developed, performance will need to be evaluated overtime. I can however comment on the effect that pulsing will have on our lasers, this has been covered before, however to recap: I spoke to Aixiz about this directly and their comments were that pulsing will have negligible effect on the lasers lifespan. So there is absolutely no issue with pulsing lasers – it will not damage your lasers at all.

If you are still interested in buying a PulseDrive there will be an option on my web site to “register” and I would be happy to guarantee a PulseDrive for the first people to register. My web site is basically finished; the only thing missing is the final product images, which I should have in a couple of weeks. I will post here as soon as the site is open.

URL is:

www.spectralight.com.au

 

 

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Zone

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# 170 ]

August 22, 2011, 05:20 AM

Just for the record guys my theory on pulsing lasers is as follows:

My research indicates that the human body adjust to ANY form of stimulation over time and the true secret to continued results is to change the stimulation form time to time (bodybuilders will tell you the same thing) which is why I have incorporated multiple frequencies modes into PulseDrive. The other 2 frequencies I have chosen (2.5K and 700Hz) both have research suggesting that they are good “general” stimulation frequencies.

Thus in short I think one of the true KEYs here is to change the modulating frequency from time to time, probably every 3 to 6 months and this is what PulseDrive will allow you to do.

 

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Rosariorose9

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# 171 ]

August 22, 2011, 12:20 PM

Zone,

You may have made this clear earlier, and if you did, I apologize for this question: will the new power supply which you include with the ‘pulser’ supplement our existing power supplies, or will it be used in place of our supplies?

Thanks

 

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Zone

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# 172 ]

August 22, 2011, 01:55 PM

Hi Rosariorose9,

No probs mate. Any and all questions are welcome.

The new power supply will replace your existing power supply.

 

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Rosariorose9

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# 173 ]

August 22, 2011, 02:15 PM

Thanks, Zone.  I am DEFINITELY ‘in’ for a pulser and and a power supply.  I’ve already bookmarked your site, and await your ‘go ahead’ to reserve these…

 

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Zone

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# 174 ]

September 09, 2011, 04:51 AM

Hey guys,

My web site is up and running!

Check it out for the very first real pictures of PulseDrive!

http://www.spectralight.com.au/

You can’t yet purchase however you can register your interest if you like. Product availability is still on track for end of October or early November.

 

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OverMachoGrande

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# 175 ]

September 09, 2011, 05:04 AM

Zone…

Man, that looks AMAZING!  I can’t wait!

-O.M.G.


Build your own Laser Helmet | Laser Brush | Laser Device at OverMachoGrande.com!  The internet’s first, best, and biggest consumer advocate site on laser therapy for hair loss!  It’s time to educate yourself about one of the greatest treatments in FORUM HISTORY…

 

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# 176 ]

September 09, 2011, 05:08 AM

Thanks OMG!

And thank you for all your help along the way too!

 

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OverMachoGrande

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# 177 ]

September 09, 2011, 05:09 AM

I’m on skype right now, by the way!  It’s 6am and I just woke up so I look like hell, but I’m awake!


Build your own Laser Helmet | Laser Brush | Laser Device at OverMachoGrande.com!  The internet’s first, best, and biggest consumer advocate site on laser therapy for hair loss!  It’s time to educate yourself about one of the greatest treatments in FORUM HISTORY…

 

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mj

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# 178 ]

September 09, 2011, 09:07 AM

zone,

great job on the website.  Have you considered other applications for this product besides marketing it solely as an accessory to the laser mesiah?  Seems like a pretty small target audience.


Tried a lot of things, never stuck with anything. Don’t do that

 

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mj

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# 179 ]

September 09, 2011, 09:08 AM

no offense, OMG, you’ve done great with your creation,  its just a product of this quality could have other applications I would imagine.


Tried a lot of things, never stuck with anything. Don’t do that

 

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OverMachoGrande

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# 180 ]

September 09, 2011, 09:09 AM

FYI… there is a REASON I haven’t been around!  It’s not exactly “small” anymore! lol…

-O.M.G.


Build your own Laser Helmet | Laser Brush | Laser Device at OverMachoGrande.com!  The internet’s first, best, and biggest consumer advocate site on laser therapy for hair loss!  It’s time to educate yourself about one of the greatest treatments in FORUM HISTORY…

 

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pierre

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# 181 ]

September 09, 2011, 09:10 AM

So zone did you experiment this pulsed LLLT ?

 

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Rosariorose9

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# 182 ]

September 09, 2011, 11:27 AM

Wow, the site looks AMAZING, Zone!  I registered, and can’t wait for the finished product…

 

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Zone

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# 183 ]

September 10, 2011, 11:35 PM

Thanks for the feedback guys.

To answer a few of your questions

The great thing about PulseDrive is that it has been specifically designed for the application of LLLT for hair loss based on 5mw Aixiz lasers. This gives everyone confidence that PulseDrive will deliver the exact dose at the right frequency for our requirements. I guess that is a targeted audience however PulseDrive can be used by anyone who has a homemade version of OMG’s laser Messiah also.

I am using my prototype full time, now that I have it back from all the distractions like lab testing and my engineer. I’ve not yet used it for a full three month trial however my initial impression is that there are benefits. That said I don’t want to be accused of hype, so in short we need more data and this is why my first production run will be priced so low. Essentially the price is just not sustainable for me from a business point of view however it gives you guys a viable and very low cost option if you want to give pulsed lasers a go.

 

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Zone

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# 184 ]

September 16, 2011, 07:50 AM

Hey guys!
I just added an FAQ page to my web site to answer the following questions:

Is pulsing safe for our lasers?

Will PulseDrive work with my existing 3V helmet power supply.

Is anything other than the PulsedDrive unit and the Spectralight power adaptor required to convert my existing Laser Messiah into a pulsed laser helmet?

Does PulseDrive come with a warranty?

Does PulseDrive come with instructions?

Why does PulseDrive incorporate three frequency modes?  What is the difference in these modes and is it necessary to change the modes?

Why could pulsed lasers produce better results than constant wave lasers?

Also added a quote from a very recent research article that concluded that pulsed lasers appear to be superior to constant wave lasers!

Let me know if you have any further questions I will add them to the site!

http://www.spectralight.com.au/

 

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OverMachoGrande

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# 185 ]

September 16, 2011, 08:59 AM

Hey guys!  This thread was getting too long and a lot of important info was getting missed!  I’m opening up a new thread -and don’t worry, I’ll never delete this and I’ll put links to it so we can continue to reference it.

Zone… as soon as the new thread is up, please repost that info!

-O.M.G.


Build your own Laser Helmet | Laser Brush | Laser Device at OverMachoGrande.com!  The internet’s first, best, and biggest consumer advocate site on laser therapy for hair loss!  It’s time to educate yourself about one of the greatest treatments in FORUM HISTORY…

 

IGNORE

 
   
 








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