MORE TESTOSTERONE=MORE DHT?

   
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BaldbeGone

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January 11, 2011, 03:54 PM

Does anyone know the verdict on this? Does more testosterone or higher testosterone levels mean more or a rise in DHT levels as well?

Im asking because I know exercise increases testosterone. And my reasoning leads me to believe more testosterone is more DHT in our bodies, but then again exercise has also been proven to be good for preventing hair loss…any ideas?


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Lapwing

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# 1 ]

January 11, 2011, 07:18 PM

I am not expert on this.  But I believe what is important is your ratio of testosterone to estrogen that is most important.  I don’t think that more T means more DHT.  If things are balanced and natural, then there will be no problems.  I am working hard on the weights with bench, squats, deadlifts.  I am getting stronger and my T levels have probably increased.  My hair in the meantime keeps improving.  Note, I am all natural and I eat a very healthy diet and eat 3 main meals a day.  You need to keep muscle mass up,body fat down, and work your cardio. 

So exercise and normal healthy eating patterns is good for hair.  On the other hand Creatine can increase DHT (at least one study found), eating multiple meals and getting insulin spikes are all bad for hair in my opinion.  I am a hair builder more than a body builder.  You can get strong and a great body with hard work the old school way. 

Most young men have a lot of hair and have high T levels and low estrogen levels, T/E about 50:1.  Most middle age guys are losing hair and have lower T levels and higher estrogen levels, T:E about 20:1. 

See Immortal hair sight for details on testosterone, estrogen, dht, hormonal influences, dht conversion, aromatase, IGF-1, etc etc

If T was solely the bad guy, then fat lazy guys would not get bald.  And that is not the case, It is usually the opposite. Being fat is bad, because fat gives you more estrogen, which throws your T/E ratio off and you end up with more dht in your scalp.  Now if you cut your balls off and become a woman, then this would not be true.  It is your overall hormonal profile and T/E ratio for your gender that is most important not just one Hormone.  The specifics on this are fairly complicated, but worth looking into at least once.

 

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BaldbeGone

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# 2 ]

January 11, 2011, 09:59 PM

Wow thanks a lot that answers my question really well actually. I’ve been really lazy since my semester started in college. Studying and not really doing any exercise and my hair has definitely taken a hit. On the other hand i feel that meals throughout the day is for me. Everyones different I suppose

Could someone link me to Immortal hairs website?


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Lapwing

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January 12, 2011, 01:29 AM

Definitely listen to your own body!  I am huge believer of that.  I’m mostly vegan and yet I glean a wealth of knowledge from immortalhair who is a big red meat eater.  Go figure.  There is always more than one path.  I just try to separate the truth as I see it from the dogma. 

Anyway there is a lot of good stuff, biochemistry, physiology, nutrition, and intellectual dialogue on his sight.    http://immortalhair.org/  There is a forum there as well at http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/f1-natural-hair-regrowth.

 

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Eranu

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January 12, 2011, 07:12 AM

There was a discussion recently at the hormone forum I frequent where the hormonal underpinnings of baldness were explained rather eloquently by our resident hormone genius… Hopefully it’s cool for me to share it with you guys.

Here you go

I won’t bother trying to explain it as my comprehension is nowhere near sufficient.


I also linked some people over there to here and overmachogrande.com when they inquired about lasers, creating an infinite loop of linkedness… Whee!!

 

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Lapwing

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January 12, 2011, 12:49 PM

Eranu,

Thanks for the link!  My understanding was that cortisol levels are increased with MPB and this guy seems to claim the opposite and that we need to raise our cortisol levels.  This doesn’t make sense to me at all.  Cortisol is the “stress” hormone and high levels lead to inflammation and abdominal fat weight gain.  How is this good for hair loss?

 

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actionreaction

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January 12, 2011, 02:42 PM

It’s all a matter of insulin resistance, I have always wondered why hairly testosterone rockin’ guys bald more and earlier than the opposite, and from all the evidence at hand that’s why… they are more prone to the visible signs of insulin resistance, which means lower Sex Hormone Binding Globulin, which means free T and thus DHT and Estrogen.  If your health is in a good place (few of us can say that genuinely) then T is good for hair as this video might illustrate.

Guy’s got Testosterone coming out of his ears but look at that head of hair man… sooo sick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SW_mgPUv9E


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Eranu

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# 7 ]

January 12, 2011, 02:53 PM

Lapwing - January 12, 2011, 12:49 PM

Eranu,

Thanks for the link!  My understanding was that cortisol levels are increased with MPB and this guy seems to claim the opposite and that we need to raise our cortisol levels.  This doesn’t make sense to me at all.  Cortisol is the “stress” hormone and high levels lead to inflammation and abdominal fat weight gain.  How is this good for hair loss?

Hmm, good point! He doesn’t touch on high cortisol at all by the looks of it. Those posts aren’t quite as exhaustive as I thought, a lot of the theory is spelt out in the guide to boosting via pregnenolone. However most of it relies on reduced cortisol production line hormones, not high levels.

As to why both high and low cortisol could lead to MPB… Supposedly excessively high cortisol will also reduce the body’s genetic set level of testosterone, and thus initiating the dumping into oestrogen (Abdominal fat). Maybe the increased cortisol is using up the reserves of pregnenolone and progesterone which would otherwise oppose DHT at the follicle.
I’m speculating wildly of course; I might put your comment to him and see what his response is.

 

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Eranu

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January 13, 2011, 05:06 AM

Right, so I asked him about the ‘high cortisol’ theory.

His response was basically this:

Cortisol can only be ‘too high’ when the body is not optimised to handle those levels, ie when testosterone/progesterone/DHT are out of balance with said high cortisol.

As is customary in hormone circles, extensive testing is necessary. This isn’t alien to me as I’ve spent many £100s on blood, urine and saliva testing to try and get to the root of my hormone dsfunction; however, a couple of years ago I would not have dreamed of spending so much money!

The basic test to run would be a saliva cortisol test, which would give you your free, biologically active level or a 24h urine analysis would give you your total levels. He recommends one or the other, but in my experience the two can conflict if the body is creating too much cortisol binding globulin (Transcortin) resulting in low free cortisol but high total production (This is my problem).

If your cortisol was high you would probably then want to measure your testosterone, pregnenolone and DHT which bring their own difficulties when trying to measure excretion rates, metabolism etc. So I imagine most people wouldn’t bother to check their levels out-of-pocket and couldn’t say whether health insurance would cover it.

He doubts people who claim to have high cortisol have done thorough enough testing. Hormone testing is not always straight forward unfortunately, and most medical practitioners don’t understand it either.

Though he did say:

But I can think of mechanisms where this could theoretially happen, and I’d have to see their hormone labs to confirm my theory. I’m not going write up any theories re something which hasn’t happened yet.

Another poster mentioned adrenal and thyroid disease can cause hair loss as a symptom, but that it is not the same as MPB and is mostly reversible. Though this is more well known I think.

—-

I hope any of that makes sense; I underestimated how difficult it is to describe this stuff lol.

 

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Lapwing

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January 14, 2011, 03:10 AM

Thanks for for the follow-up Eranu.  I don’t know about this.  I think everybody’s theory on hormones right now is just fuzzy science.  I do agree hormone testing done correctly is very hard to do from everything I have heard.

This is why I like to stick to more coarse parameters and not talk much about hormones per se.  I think it is too easy to fall into a logic trap, which could result a very bad outcome for your hair or health. The human endocrine system is very complex were one change in it could result in a wildly different expected outcome.  Hydrogenated oil is an example of a good logical idea that turn out to be disastrous.

 

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The Zix Creator

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January 14, 2011, 10:24 AM

Lapwing I think of hormones like this…. Testoterone…..generally good for us. High testosterone levels are a weak negative for hair (because it can be converted to DHT) but good in so many other ways. Libido for one. Muscle mass for another…but also energy, strength, endurance etc. So I wouldn’t worry about the effects of increasing testosterone from weight training. DHT…definitely very bad for hair but needed for lots of other things. Don’t try to reduce it internally. It will only result in side effects. Instead attack it topically only. Estrogen….a weak positive for hair. Durk Pearson had a formula using topical estrogen more than 30 years ago. It worked but there were systemic side effects from it.

That’s how I think of these three hormones.

I saw a study several years ago and I could never find it again regarding aerobic exercise and hair. The study showed that aerobic exercise was good at reducing DHT. Maybe a combination of both weight training and aerobic exercise is the way to go for optimal fitness and hair?

Just some thoughts to throw at you.

 

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Lapwing

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January 14, 2011, 03:38 PM

Zix Creator,

Thanks, that is pretty much my take on those 3 hormones too.  I do a combo of weight training and cardio for just those reasons.  My believe is if you can keep young man body composition of high muscle mass and low body fat by natural methods, your hormones will stay in line and you will maintain the optimum T/E ratio for a man.  And I address DHT topically with caffeine and I do LLLT.  I try to optimize and balance my health with a clean diet and extra supplements to counter all things correlated with MBP such as inflammation, heart disease, insulin resistance, high blood pressure, prostate problems etc.  And I do scalp maintenance with oils and periodic clay scalp peels.  All of this is working pretty darn well for me.  If I can just get a little more improvement I will become one of those exalted hair loss ghosts riding off in the distance far away from these forums…

 

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scottyc33

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January 16, 2011, 11:32 AM

Decline of plasma 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) levels upon testosterone administration to elderly men with subnormal plasma testosterone and high DHT levels.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18811920

The study was performed to measure the impact of testosterone (T) administration on circulating levels of 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Group 1 (32 men; mean age 61 years; mean T 6.9 +/- 1.9 nmol l(-1)) were treated for 15 months with long-acting T undecanoate. Group 2 (23 men, mean age 60 years, mean T 7.6 +/- 2.0 nmol l(-1)) were treated for 9 months with T gel. Plasma T and DHT were measured before and after 9 months T administration. In the men treated with T undecanoate plasma T and DHT were also measured after 12 and 15 months. Before T administration, plasma DHT ranged from 0.39 to 1.76 nmol l(-1) (0.30-1.90 nmol l(-1)). Mean DHT declined upon T administration from 0.95 +/- 0.50 to 0.55 +/- 0.30 nmol l(-1) (P

< 0.05). With an arbitrary cut-off at 0.60 nmol l(-1), all 21 values of DHT >

0.60 nmol l(-1) had fallen from 1.29 +/- 0.50 to 0.70 +/- 0.60 nmol l(-1) (P < 0.01). Below this cut-off point 13 values rose and 21 fell upon T administration. Below this cut-off point values on average declined from 0.39 +/- 0.12 to 0.30 +/- 0.14 nmol l(-1) (P < 0.05). The study revealed that in a cohort of elderly men with subnormal plasma T levels plasma DHT levels declined upon T administration when they were in the higher range of normal (>0.6 nmol l(-1)), with a profound shift of DHT/T ratios presumed to be an indicator of a reduced 5alpha-reductase activity. Below plasma DHT levels of 0.6 nmol l(-1), responses of plasma DHT to T administration varied.

 

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jads

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January 17, 2011, 04:53 AM

Eranu - January 12, 2011, 07:12 AM

There was a discussion recently at the hormone forum I frequent where the hormonal underpinnings of baldness were explained rather eloquently by our resident hormone genius… Hopefully it’s cool for me to share it with you guys.

Here you go

I won’t bother trying to explain it as my comprehension is nowhere near sufficient.


I also linked some people over there to here and overmachogrande.com when they inquired about lasers, creating an infinite loop of linkedness… Whee!!


Eranu, I second your comment. The mechanisms he described are explained very eloquently indeed. Given that I have just been told my cortisol is low and I have adrenal fatigue, the theory is made all the more interesting!!

I think this guy is definitely onto something with his explanation.  He mentions increased progesterone levels may not have the expected affect on hair cells due to their metabolic rate being too low. HE then discusses LLLT being key to increasing metabolic activity so the uptake of progesterone (not DHT ) into the cells is accelerated.  Now that is REALLY interesting.  A hormone guy that knows about laser benefits!

Thanks for linking this so it could be read!

 

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brh

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January 17, 2011, 12:36 PM

Do yall believe taking fin can have a negative effect on some people’s hair? Or is that impossible

 

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Lapwing

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January 17, 2011, 05:57 PM

Fin can have a “null” effect (ie, you can be non-responder) and your hair continues to get worse.  So “no effect” could appear negative.  If you are non-responder and fin wrecks your health, mental, and emotional well-being as well that would make your hair worse from all the stress that causes and the negative health consequences.  So yes it could in my opinion.  From the stats (if you believe them) this would only happen to a small percentage of people. 

After 5 years of fin most people are back to baseline and are looking at losing hair after that point.  It is not the magic cure and the risks are really bad and real.  Everybody keeps thinking the cure will be in 5 years, which is another bad gamble in my opinion!

 

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Eranu

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January 18, 2011, 11:35 AM

jads - January 17, 2011, 04:53 AM

Eranu, I second your comment. The mechanisms he described are explained very eloquently indeed. Given that I have just been told my cortisol is low and I have adrenal fatigue, the theory is made all the more interesting!!

I think this guy is definitely onto something with his explanation.  He mentions increased progesterone levels may not have the expected affect on hair cells due to their metabolic rate being too low. HE then discusses LLLT being key to increasing metabolic activity so the uptake of progesterone (not DHT ) into the cells is accelerated.  Now that is REALLY interesting.  A hormone guy that knows about laser benefits!

Thanks for linking this so it could be read!

That’s cool, jads. There are a couple of other threads that might be worth looking at if you are looking at ways to treat adrenal fatigue: Hormones 101 and the thread on pregnenolone supplementation. It’s presented as fact, but there still seems to be some tweaking going on and some doctors may disagree with it.

I’m interested to see how people fair coming from hair loss to hormone therapy, as my hair loss problems started after I tried fixing my hormones (Testosterone initially, but apparently my body was rejecting it for a reason)

—-

As for my previous posts, I just want to say it may well be worth anybody who is curious getting a 24 hour adrenal saliva test. They are pretty affordable and you can get them without a doctor in most countries. That should cover the basics, to begin with at least.

 

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The Zix Creator

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January 18, 2011, 01:21 PM

Yea Eranu I skimmed that article myself a few days ago. I always believed the reason LLLT worked would have something to do with DHT. Now we have the first piece of evidence (that I’m aware of) to suggest that the increased uptake of progesterone essentially reduces the uptake of DHT. So in a sense LLLT therapy reduces DHT.

 

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Mastery

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January 20, 2011, 12:28 AM

I agree with Zix on all points.

M

 

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