Using NIACIN in pre-laser topicals…

   
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OverMachoGrande

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November 17, 2011, 03:19 PM

Ok, we’ve been talking about using oils for pre-laser topicals, and I think adding niacin is a crucial part -and scientifically backed up for increasing the effectiveness of the treatments in laser therapy.


Just to recap:


As you know, I preach about using polysorbate 80/ethyl alcohol before a shower, then showering, and then using the laser helmet on damp, towel-dried hair.  This removes sebum, and the damp scalp reduces the amount of laser energy that is reflected off the surface and improves laser penetration. 

Well, I think that people with drier hair might benefit from skipping the first shower, and instead use a pre-laser topical made up primarily of an oil.  We’ve know that pre-laser topicals can improve results, but there would have to be a second shower to wash it out, so it didn’t work with the previous regimen. 

I’ve been testing it, and perhaps using the oil instead of the shower is a good alternative, and has the benefit of preventing dry hair/scalp, and allows us the opportunity to add other things that have been proven to aid results -like NIACIN!


Niacin is something I meant to explore years ago, but I just forgot about it.  I always knew that it aided laser therapy, but that whole “two shower” problem kept me from pursuing it.  Now, I’ve found that swapping the shower with an oil might be good enough, so there isn’t a problem anymore.

So, I’m finally going to explore this.  No, WE are going to explore this because I’m calling on other people to do this with me -it’s easy, and it’s SAFE!  Niacin and all of these oils are well tested and aren’t going to screw up your hair like that topical EDTA did with me!  lol…  [Mass shedding!]

It’s absolute common sense that using a vasodilator (makes the blood vessels wider) before laser therapy would increase results, and it’s been proven scientifically as well.  I can post a couple of findings later on that if I make an article, but here are some:

Topical Niacin Improves Laser Treatment of Rosacea

This is Laser Treatment 101. Increase blood flow and oxyhemoglobin and you will increase the efficacy of laser treatment. We eventually experimented with much better topical dilators and oral deep dilators… as well as heat induced dilators such as holding hot coffee in the oral cavity (mouth) for 30 seconds to trigger the dreaded heat induced flush. Then we could selectively treat these thermoregulatory vessels and reduce flushing to warmth and heat. It works.

-Dr. Geoffrey Nase

Enhancing effect of pretreatment with topical niacin in the treatment of rosacea-associated erythema by 585-nm pulsed dye laser in Koreans: a randomized, prospective, split-face trial.

Pretreatment with topical niacin safely enhanced the effect of 585-nm PDL treatment of rosacea-associated erythema…

Is Niacin used with the Zerona Laser Treatment?

There is 100 mg of Niacin and Niacinamide that is in the Curva product that the company makes and highly encourages.

This is just a taste of the info, but as always, the information on hair loss regarding this is pretty much non-existent.  People don’t care about your hair loss, and usually when they find something out that’s beneficial, they keep it to themselves.  I have no doubts niacin is being used in top clinics.

Ok, so I went to my local hippie natural store around here, and I bought some niacin capsules (NOT the delayed release, and NOT the non-flushing… just straight up niacin).  I also bought some castor oil and glycerin just to play around with since we are going to explore oils, and they are both really, really cheap -and man, that castor oil is something else.  I stuck my finger in it and I had to wash my hands like four times to get it off, so if I ever use that it’s going to be really diluted!

Anyway, I opened two niacin capsules and dumped the contents into a six ounce jar full of water and a splash of glycerin (just to play around -not necessary at all).  I shook it and applied it on my head.

I was actually prepared to write that I obviously don’t know what I’m doing because I couldn’t feel the stimulation, but I finally started feeling it about five or ten minutes later, right after I put the emu oil on my head.  I also put on some on top of the emu after that (I’ve always heard that you should put the emu first, and then it carries whatever you put on top of it down, but the order might not matter).  So, it could just be the time, but I think it took the oil to really start bringing the niacin into the tissue.

So, the flushed, warm feeling increased, and I started using the helmet (and it kept increasing a little during the treatment, too).  Don’t mistake this for cayenne/capsaicin burn!  That is an irritation type of burn, and this isn’t that bad!

You could probably just mix the niacin into the oil, and I’ll play with that when I’m out of emu.  Emu is just too damn expensive to mix in all sorts of test ingredients like this! I have olive oil in my cabinet that I’m going to use next, and I’ll do that then.

I was going to put a splash of lemon juice on my head as well, but I forgot about that.  Yes, that’s mixed into some laser clinic treatments, and it allegedly has the benefit of making skin more sensitive to light.  I don’t think that’s why the clinics use it, though… I think they use it to mask the salad dressing smell of olive oil.  So, I’m not sure if lemon juice would really help, but I’ll try to remember to put a few drops of it on my head next time!

So, I, OverMachoGrande, am asking for some other people to join me in this niacin experiment!  Let me know who you are!

-O.M.G.


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# 1 ]

November 18, 2011, 02:37 AM

This sounds interesting. Correct me if I’m wrong but are you applying the niacin with emu oil and then lasering without having a shower first?  Are you worried that sebum or whatever else will be absorbed with the oil/niacin?  Is it because you think dry scalps don’t have as much of a problem with sebum?

I can only imagine the level of stimulation this routine would get ha, I could be in!

 

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November 18, 2011, 07:11 AM

I’ll give this a shot. But just to be clear:  6 ounces of olive oil mixed with 2 niacin capsules and a squeeze of lemon juice.  All 6 oz of this are used in one treatment, or just a thin coat to cover your head?  and you leave this on while you laser after giving it ten minutes to soak in?


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November 18, 2011, 12:03 PM

This is going to take A LOT of experimentation for us to get it right, but I think we’re on our way.

I’m not really sure about the olive oil yet, but I did try it today.  It definitely felt different than the emu oil -I really think the emu oil FELT LIKE it was penetrating deeper (this might not be correct, though -just a feeling).  Also, it’s tough for me to gauge the niacin because I’m so used to flushing agents burning the hell out of you like capsaicin/cayenne!  I massaged the oil for a while, and after a few minutes I did feel a slight warming sensation, and maybe that’s all the niacin will do -but maybe I need to try more.

Here is a screengrab from this video (http://youtu.be/CDyuNrihDQY?t=1m29s) that we were talking about in the other thread:

387920_321517631198349_100000203445847_1513824_707911128_n.jpg

When I mixed the olive oil with a bit of ethyl alcohol (to thin it and add penetration) and then added a splash of polysorbate 80 to hold them together (I do feel the polysorbate 80 was necessary, but I didn’t do anything scientific here, and it might be that vigorously shaking up the container every time would be enough), it looked very similar with that mustardy sort of color:

383262_321523091197803_100000203445847_1513863_1911188985_n.jpg

So, if copying their formula is a goal, we’re on the right track judging by the color -although I think we can do BETTER than them!  I do think emu would prove to be superior, but like I said… it’s so expensive (and it works a little TOO GOOD and my hair is a little too moisturized no matter what I do to try to clean it off).  Maybe we can find some bulk rate emu oil somewhere.

After I mixed the olive oil and the alcohol, I then put in the contents of a couple of niacin capsules and a splash of lemon juice.  Once I added the alcohol to the olive oil, the salad dressing smell completely went away, by the way.  So, that’s not an issue.  This would last a LONG TIME -I used a 6cc syringe to suck up the mixture and put on my head, and I filled it up about twice, maybe a few squirts more.  I think this would probably last a few weeks easily.

Well into the treatment, I did feel like the niacin was working a little more, so I’m still not clear what to expect.  With the cayenne, I knew what to expect (YEOWCH!!!).  I’m assuming that it’s probably working like it’s supposed to, but maybe I need to add a few more pills.  The way to test this would be to put it on my FACE.  The face flushes a lot more than the scalp, so maybe I’ll do that tomorrow!  That should tell me how long it takes for the vasodilation to work.

I honestly have always felt that olive oil blocks some of the LLLT.  I could be absolutely wrong… it might simply be that a well nourished and oiled scalp makes it so you feel less of a pump because it’s spreading the LLLT energy deeper and into a larger area.  So, I definitely need more people here to mess around with oils and see how it goes!

So, MJ…  Six ounces would probably last WEEKS, so you don’t need to use very much.  That’s the good thing about this… it’s so cheap it’s ridiculous.  If you have polysorbate 80, you should put just a squeeze of that in.  If not, it’s probably ok.  I think that the ethyl alcohol is important though -and some of that is based on the fact that this is what caused it to get that mustardy color. 

It was probably about five or ten minutes before I felt that little bit of warmth, but it wasn’t superstrong.  So, I may experiment with more -but it might simply be that this is how long it takes!

The niacin feeling was definitely LESS, though, than it was with the emu.

Luke…  Yeah, that’s right.  I think as long as we shower fairly regularly that we won’t have LLLT-BLOCKING amounts of sebum!

By the way, I think dry scalps DO have a problem with sebum -I think that this is actually a highly complex problem!  I don’t really know the root of it, but it’s something that can be problematic for sure. 

-O.M.G.


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November 18, 2011, 12:49 PM

Ok, Ok, I know it’s less than an hour since I typed that post up above, but I can tell you that I don’t think that the olive oil is blocking the LLLT by any means!  It’s after my shower, and that stimulation feeling is setting in quite nicely!

Also, my hair does feel really soft -maybe from the lemon juice?  Maybe that’s the point of that.  I remember that there was a reason that we uncovered as to why olive oil would be good for this, and I want to say that it’s because it has an ingredient that enables more of the light energy to be converted to ATP for mitochondrial energy, but I can’t remember exactly.  You can’t beat the cost, either.  Pennies a day!

I also had forgotten that I used to use a soap bar (an all natural tea tree one from the hippie store) to remove the oil before the shampoo, and that would work pretty well.  You can really scrub it out with a lot of lather and not worry about wasting your good hair loss shampoo, which probably doesn’t lather very well anyway since it doesn’t have the harsh detergent ingredients in it.

As I said before, it’s a DIFFERENT STIMULATION when I use a pre-laser topical vs. when I don’t.  It’s less BAMMO INTENSE STIMULATION, but it’s more of a feeling like a baseball glove is over your head.  It’s a bigger stimulation area, but feels deeper. 

Anyway, here are my feelings…

I think that we are going to find that if we stick with this or any other pre-laser oil treatment, we are going to find that we are going to get better results.  I think less laser energy is stuck at the surface, and I think more of it is getting in to where it needs to be.  Plus, I think it’s going to counter-act that over-drying some people get.  Who knows… maybe the oils that are drawing in the laser energy will have an affect on calcification as well.

-O.M.G.


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November 20, 2011, 08:38 AM

my polysorbate 80 bottle says that it has biotin and niacin.  I just used that and left it in during the session….thoughts?


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November 20, 2011, 12:06 PM

Well, the only thing I can say is that polysorbate isn’t an oil, and I don’t think it penetrates very deeply on it’s own. How did it feel?? 

I’m using my laser helmet today, and I realized that maybe just a LITTLE BIT of emu oil in the olive oil brew that I mixed last time might be good. So, I added a squeeze from the bottle in -and the I saw my neem oil and tea tree oil, and I decided to add a few drops of them in as well.  So, I’ve added a lot of crap into the mix, but it’s things that help (tea tree is an anti-fungal), and as long as it doesn’t block penetration I think it’s ok.

The tea tree oil might be another way to get the blood flowing a little more on the scalp as well, and it might help the niacin do it’s thing.

I honestly forgot the purported benefits of neem oil (nothing a quick google seach couldn’t find!), but I have it, so why not!

I’ll try it today and report back!

-O.M.G.


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November 20, 2011, 03:45 PM

Ok, I’ve use the olive oil combo with the extra additives, and I have mixed feelings.

I do think that the tea tree oil mixed in with the niacin had a little bit of synergy, so I like that.  The flushed skin feels the tingle of the tea tree much more.  It really lets me know the niacin is working.  My head is STILL tingling a little from the tea tree, and it’s been over an hour since my shower.

I do feel a lot of stimulation, too.

HOWEVER… I just don’t have the same feeling that I have when I use my emu oil.  Emu oil just feels like it’s a deeper stimulation with an extra bit of “buzz” or something.  I think emu oil trumps olive oil BIG TIME.

The fact remains that emu oil is one of the best penetrants out there -and definitely the best cosmetic penetrant.  It also does carry other ingredients transdermally very well.  There is no doubt that this is why I feel the extra stimulation -the oil is getting to a deeper depth and saturating the tissue at a deeper level, therefore much more laser energy is getting through the skin and down where we need it.

So, I’m sold that emu oil will be better than any sort of olive oil treatment (and we get to leave out the alcohol, too).  For the best results, I think emu oil has to be the base!

The problem is that it’s expensive.  A four ounce bottle will definitely last a few months, but when you are experimenting, it does become a bit of a problem -you just don’t want to waste it.  Also, there are a TON of different types of emu oil out there that all proclaim their process is better.  I have used a pretty cheap one before, and I felt that it didn’t give me that same feeling. 

I have some of hairloss-research.org’s emu oil, too, and although I haven’t used it as a pre-laser topical yet (I’ll try that tomorrow), it’s definitely too expensive for me to use for this.  I like LongviewFarms.com emu oil -that’s what I normally use.  It’s also expensive, though (but half the price of the other one), but I may suck it up and just buy a 32 ounce bottle of it.  Also, I do feel like it leaves more residue in my hair, but maybe that’s my imagination or something.

There are a lot of other brands with all sorts of certifications, and maybe I’ll experiment with that later.

Ok, so the next laser treatment I do, I’m going to use hairloss-research.org’s “pharmaceutical grade” emu oil (with a little bit of niacin added on) that is really expensive, but is a little bit different feeling -more clean, etc.

After that, I’m going to try to mix some of the longviewfarms.com emu with niacin, tea tree, a few drops of neem, and MAYBE a splash of lemon juice, and see how it goes.  If I like this, I’ll buy a lot of it so can be much more free to experiment.

That’s my schedule!

-O.M.G.


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November 20, 2011, 05:49 PM

OMG,

Just for the record, I spoke with somebody from hairloss-research.org in the past about their emu oil vs. other companies who make emu oil products.  The guy said the emus they render their oil from are given organic feed only and is made in a lab at Texas A&M via a “low-temperature” fat rendering process.  This supposedly has pretty significant implications on the content and anti-inflammatory potential of the oil.  Also, this helps ensure you are not rubbing oil loaded with hormones into your scalp as well.  Longview Farms looks like they have good product too, but I’m not sure whether or not they use organic feed - this could be a significant efficacy factor.  I’m almost through 3 bottles of hairloss-research emu oil and I definitely have had vellus hair growth in my temples.  A few have also gone terminal, but this is nothing cosmetically significant.  I lead a pretty pro-inflammatory lifestyle on the weekends and have been for years, so this could be offsetting the true hair growth potential for my scalp.  Let us know how the Longview Farms oil works for you.  I’ll try and get some information from them, regarding how the emu’s they source from are raised.

 

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November 21, 2011, 10:46 AM

Hey, TrueGround!

Yeah, the guy that runs hairloss-research.org is a really nice guy, and I’ve spoken to him about making articles for the site!

I do think his emu oil is superior when I’ve tried it (non-laser, though -I never used it as a pre-laser topical), but I’m afraid that the cost is going to keep me from using it from this application.  The cost for longview farms is almost too much, too.

Find out what you can about Longview Farms.  They’ll respond -actually, I’ve yelled at them before because they charged me something like $8 shipping when they sent it first class for 75 cents, and since it was first class, it took about a week and a half to get to me.  Flat rate Priority Mail boxes are something like $4.75, and they would still make a “handling” profit, and I would have gotten it in two days.  I told them it was unethical, and they should raise the stated price of their emu oil because they were clearly making profit on their shipping.  They actually had changed it to a flat rate box the last time I ordered, so maybe lots of people complained.  I mean seriously… the jig is up on rolling profits into shipping.  That’s so lame.

One of the problems I have is that I want to come up with something people will use because it improves their results.  When they go to a clinic, not only are they forced to used the laser device (ensured compliance!), they are forced to use the pre-laser topical.  At home, it’s a whole different ball game -and it doesn’t do me any favors when people don’t stick with their helmet or do the things that I know improves results.  For example, I think most people outright ignore the poly 80/ethly alcohol pre-shower thing.  [...and I’d say most people ignore the shower part, too.]  So, it’s a struggle as it is to get people to do the right thing, and adding something that costs a lot of money on a monthly basis isn’t going to help!

Well, maybe… there is always that whole psychology of “If it’s expensive, it must work”, so maybe they WOULD by the expensive emu oil!  But with shipping, I think it ends up being $30 for 2 ounces, and 2 ounces just is not a “fun” amount.  I hate having to use things sparingly to stretch the lifespan out.

My honest thoughts on all of this is emu oil is emu oil is emu oil, but I can easily take that back if I’m wrong!

Ok, now… update on the pre-laser topicals:

I actually didn’t have enough of the hairloss-research.org emu to do the trial today.  But, I decided to experiment around with the little bit of longviewfarms emu oil I had left, and mixed it directly with the lemon juice, drops of tea tree and neem, and the naicin.

I don’t think that niacin dissolved so well in the emu.  Maybe it was just the filler left, or maybe it has to sit for a long time.  Regardless,  I think that I’m going to keep the emu seperate from the other ingredients after I use the remaining little bit here.

So, I think the process I’m going to try NEXT would be to put the emu on first (which is good because you can use it sparingly if you wish), and then mix another topical with the niacin, lemonjuice, tea tree and neem, and put that on second.  The pre-applied emu will still help those ingredients penetrate.

I do think we are getting somewhere with all of this!  I might have to look for a source of pure nitrogen without any filler, though.  I’m getting closer and closer to nailing the process, though, and I don’t have a problem using two topicals like that.  Oh, I may TRY to use the expensive emu again, and really take the time to document it.

-O.M.G.


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November 21, 2011, 01:42 PM

FYI… I just spoke to Immortal, and he reminded me that Tea Tree oils, Peppermint oils, etc., are great anti-microbials, but they are SO POTENT at androgen-blocking that they are borderline estrogenic.  So, I don’t think I want to be pulling tea tree oil into my system long term like that. 

We also talked about coconut oil, and it might be a great addidion.  So, maybe we can combine the coconut oil with the emu oil base, and then add niacin to it.  Purebulk.com sells 250g of pure niacin for only $14.50, so I may buy that.  I may go ahead and buy a larger quantity of emu oil just so I can play around with this a little more.

-O.M.G.


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November 21, 2011, 01:55 PM

OMG, I def notice a residue with Longview Farms oil too. It’s hard to rinse off, but it do notice a decrease in inflammation with it too… Also remember that study that was posted on hairloss-research about the synergistic effect of coconut and emu oils for growth? niacin could be a great addition! DHT inhibiton, anti-inflammatory action, anti-microbial action and increased blood flow… PLUS lasering! Could be a pretty potent attack!

 

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November 21, 2011, 05:25 PM

Hey, yanks1!

Glad you gave me that feedback… it helped me to decide to order two different brands to try before I commit on a big quantity!  I’ve tried exactly two other types of emu oil if I remember correctly, and those didn’t have quite as much of a residue.  HOWEVER… something keeps drawing me back to Longview Farms -maybe the penetration ability?  I don’t know, but I’ll keep trying different brands first before I commit on that.

I *do* remember the thing about the synergistic effect of coconut oils and emu oils, and I actually worked it in today -AFTER the laser treatment, and here is the deal…

Ok, I can’t find one single thing that says that coconut oil would really positively impact the efficacy of laser therapy.  In other words, there is no reason to use coconut oil during laser therapy –whereas emu oil and niacin absolutely have a reason.  However, what do we have after we use laser therapy with an emu oil/niacin mixture?  We have:
1) ...the transdermal effects of the emu oil still available (it’ll help pull whatever you put on down through all the layers of skin -it’s the only thing besides DMSO that will do that)
2) ...the vasodilation caused by the niacin (which will improve penetration and circulation of whatever you’re putting on your head)
3)...and the increased blood flow caused by LLLT (also which will improve penetration and circulation of whatever you’re putting on your head).

So, we’ve got a perfect canvas here for something like coconut oil!  If you have the time to wait 20 minutes after laser therapy before you wash it out, you can put the coconut oil on then and it would be much more effective than without all of that going on!  It seriously is a great opportunity to add something that you’d want on for only a little while before you wash it out.

I think that’ll be a part of the overall regimen!  Coconut oil, unlike a lot of other oils (I don’t know about emu, though) has the ability to actually penetrate into the HAIR SHAFT, therefore improving the looks and health of existing hair.  It’s also natural antifungal, antimicrobial and anti-inflammatory.

So, it seems like we can’t miss here.  Emu with niacin / then laser (with the pulsedrive, too!) / then coconut oil / then shower with a good shampoo.  That’s really solid.

-O.M.G.


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November 21, 2011, 09:11 PM

Yeah,

This could definitely boost results for some people.  Emu oil has always been the core of my topical treatment.  You can take this stuff, massage it into your temples for about a minute, check your scalp 5 minutes later and virtually all the oil will have penetrated into the dermis.  It’s pretty amazing how quickly it absorbs.  What I do is massage a thin layer of emu into my problem areas and wait 15-20 minutes.  Then I follow up with a 50/50 emu and organic, virgin coconut oil mix.  I usually leave this in overnight, but you can wait another 20 minutes or so and wash out - the mix should have absorbed into the skin pretty well by then.  I like to keep things simple with topicals and not add anything and everything that touts a benefit to hair loss.  However, Niacin is something I would have no problem throwing in as a pre-laser topical. 

Emu+Niacin before lasering then following with a 50/50 emu and coconut after laser therapy is what I think I’m going to go with.  This is simple, seems powerful and covers the bases - can’t ask for much more! 

Now, I really wish we could figure out if it really is going to be beneficial to use oils a pre-laser topical.  I definitely get the poly 80 / ethyl alcohol rationale.  I can’t imagine the sebum NOT blocking/absorbing laser light.  What I’m curious about, is whether or not the emu oil will absorb a lot of the laser energy instead of the follicle.  Conversely, like you said OMG, this could be spreading the laser energy more effectively - hence that “deeper” stimulation you experienced.  I guess only time and experimentation will tell us which way to go!

Do you notice any skin irritation AT ALL from the Niacin or do you just notice that “blood flush” feeling?

-TG

 

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November 22, 2011, 08:16 AM

Oh, I can tell you it’ll be beneficial -I can judge that by the way it feels!  I’m EXTREMELY sensitive to laser therapy, and it makes determining this easy.  I’m not worried in any way about the emu oil taking away from laser results.  I’m actually not worried anymore about not taking a shower before laser therapy either.  I should have gotten to the bottom of all of this a couple of years ago, but oh well!  lol….  better late than never, and I’m never afraid to change something that might give better results!

About the niacin… I actually just tested it this morning ON MY FACE!  No irritation -actually, the only irratation was from the undissolved filler that was scraping my face when I put it on.  My face definitely ended up looking like I just got out of a tanning bed or something, but it didn’t hurt. 

There might be a level where it WOULD cause irritation, but it’d have to be a huge amount because I dissolved two pills into what was probably only about an ounce or so of emu oil.

-O.M.G.


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# 15 ]

November 22, 2011, 09:10 AM

I have some pretty high hopes for this approach! but diet is always going to be #1 for me. this is a great idea for regrowth though. I’ll also be incorporating scalp massage/exercise while hanging upside down here and there. I actually noticed pretty decent results a few years back from this. My only concern with the pre-laser oils is keeping my helmet clean. I’ve done it in the past and there seems no way of avoiding oil in the helmet and no easy way of cleaning it either. Other than that it’s great!

 

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November 22, 2011, 09:16 AM

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that this is one reason why olive oil was a bust for me -it really was slimy, and got all over my helmet -especially on the headband!  I used a paper towel and it was ok, but emu dries much less slimy!

Don’t worry about the headband -I actually used foresight with that and kept it detachable just incase it ever needed to be replaced.  So, we can always replace the headband!

By the way, my face is still really, really flushed!  It’ll be interesting to see how long it stays flushed like this.  I chose today because I don’t have to leave the house or see anyone except my wife!

-O.M.G.


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# 17 ]

November 22, 2011, 10:37 AM

I have experimented with niacin in the past with other topical solutions-(non-hair related) and based on my experience I can tell you that your initial niacin application will always be the best one ever. After that initial burn, your vessels become more used to it and if used regularly you will have some vasodilation effect but it will be maybe 20% of the initial warmth. Daily use will minimize it more, while several days off will edge it slightly stronger. Niacin being water soluble can be dissolved in water, then strained off to get rid of some of the grit that the fillers leave behind so that you are not scratching your scalp so much massaging in the solution, if you are using the capsules or pills with fillers. Emu has always worked great for me as a carrier oil and then adding a emulsifier like polysorbate XX (a number of various weights), or garlic or a host of other ones. Emu and Jojoba oils have always been my proven winners for creating a balanced solution for topical application with maximum absorption and penetration. Jojoba being molecularly similar to sebum is a very good cleaner of the hair follicle and shaft base- being allowed to take sebum’s place in skin, therefore carrying the dissolved ingredients to the hair follicle, while the emu carries the ingredients transdermally to the vessels and cells in the skin. Just be careful what all you are putting in your solutions because everything- the good and perhaps some bad ingredients (knowingly or unknowingly) will be carried into your body bypassing the bodies normal protective barriers.

-Tony

 

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November 22, 2011, 08:13 PM

So… at the 12 or 13 hour point, I STILL have some flushing on my face!  Ha ha ha!  I think there is plenty of room for acclimation here!  Plus, using it only three times a week deals with that pretty well, too!  Worthy of note… I didn’t mention this before, but I actually used my makeshift face laser device today after I applied the emu/niacin, so I’m sure that made the niacin have a much greater impact.

siren.gif
UPDATE
We’ve already evolved, so read this part!

Ok, just to catch us up where we are, I want to share an email I sent earlier tonight to a customer of mine that’s one of the few that gets really bad, dry hair, followed by shedding.  I *do* think that the Emu/Niacin followed by LLLT, and then followed by coconut oil would completely eradicate this (or possibly jojoba like tonyb suggested -I think there are a lot we could use, and I almost bought jojoba to experiment with over the weekend).

Here is the email:

Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 6:25 PM
Hey, name-hidden-to-protect-the-innocent!

I may have inadvertently solved the problem you and a handful of others are having.  It stemmed from someone making a thread on my worldhairloss.org forum recently about really dry hair after lasering, and I have spent a lot of time researching this and looking back into what should probably be the best way that EVERYONE should be using laser therapy.  I have a discussion thread about it here: http://www.worldhairloss.org/index.php/forums/viewthread/680  ...and there are a couple of other current threads that are mentioning it.

Here is the goal…. we want to keep your scalp moisturized, we want to draw the laser energy in deeper, we want to make the treatment session more productive, and we want the actual hair shaft to be remoisturized as well.  If we do all these things, I absolutely feel that your problem will be solved.

So, what I’m now starting to realize is that the shower before laser therapy method isn’t the best way to do this.  I think applying a special OIL to the scalp instead of the shower, then using laser therapy, then applying a SECOND OIL, and then showering is the best method.

I’d like you to buy three things if you can:

1) Emu oil –any brand, it doesn’t matter.  Actually, it MIGHT matter, but I think you’ll reap the benefits from any brand or type, and I just want you to get started on this.  I’ve used longviewfarms.com a lot over the past five years, and I do feel like it leaves a little bit too much residue after I wash it out.  I’ve also bought an extremely expensive bottle from hairloss-research.org.  It does feel much better, but it’s way too expensive for my taste.  I just bought two other brands that are being shipped now, but I can’t remember what they are called.  Anyway, longviewfarms certainly wouldn’t hurt at least for one bottle, and your local natural store may have some.

2) Niacin capsules –you can get these from everywhere.  You *do* want the type that causes flushing, and you *don’t* want the non-flushing, extended release kind.

3) Coconut oil –you get this from an natural heath food store.  You want extra-virgin, organic, cold pressed, and all of those other types of tags on it.  It comes as a solid at room temperature, by the way, and the containers are kind of expensive, but you’re only going to use like a teaspoon full at a time, so it’ll last for a long time.

Here is your problem…  I think some of your problem is that too much of the laser energy is staying at the surface of your scalp.  It makes no sense that true “overstimulation” based on the time you are using it is happening because laser therapy just doesn’t do that.  However, the laser energy not penetrating enough might be what is causing this sensation –the surface of your scalp is getting cooked!  Not literally, of course, it just feels like it.

Emu oil is one of the most penetrating substances known to man, and I’ve tested it pretty well now and I know for a fact that it helps the laser energy to actually get deep into your scalp.  It’s the only natural oil that will spread down through all seven layers of skin.  So, it’ll draw in the energy DEEP, which means you won’t get too much on the surface.

Emu oil is a great CARRIER, too.  Whatever you put in it will transfer down through the skin as well.

Also, one of emu oil’s great strengths is that it has been shown to turn hair follicles in the resting phase BACK INTO THE GROWING PHASE.  So, your shedded hair is going to come back much quicker this way [added:  …and it should help to PREVENT shedding hair as well since it extends the growing phase].

With niacin, I had completely forgotten that niacin is “Laser Therapy 101”, and I at one time had plans to make something like this earlier, but I’m only now getting around to it.  I was re-studying old research that I have, and it absolutely spells out that niacin increases the efficacy of laser therapy tremendously.  Niacin is a vasodilator, which means that it expands all the micro-capillaries on the scalp, and therefore more blood/oxygen/etc. gets into the target area, and this is a GOOD thing.

Also, niacin bonds with the glucose that’s stored in your cells in that area and will help to form ATP right on the spot, and this helps stimulate the mitochondria which is what the laser therapy is trying to do in the first place.

So, niacin in emu oil is fantastic, and I’ve already tried it several times.  We’re keeping it simple here, too, and just going to use those two in this pre-laser topical.

The end result is a much more moisturized, healthy scalp, and this alone would probably help you.  More than likely, you won’t need me to tell you that after you use it.

Here is where the coconut oil comes in.  I think AFTER the laser treatment, you should use coconut oil.  If you google “coconut oil for hair loss”, you’ll see a great many things that it can do –but what’s great is that it actually can penetrate the hair shaft and add lost protein to it, so you are helping your existing hair immensely!  I’ve used this a few days, and it’s made an astounding difference in the appearance of my hair, so I know it’s going to help you, too.

It has a lot of benefits for the scalp and follicles as well.  The problem with coconut oil is that it doesn’t penetrate as well, but look at what you have after laser therapy… you have a stimulated scalp with a lot of blood flow (especially after using the niacin), and you have the emu oil transdermal properties.  So, you have a stage set for the coconut oil that will make it much more effective.

So, here is what you need to do (and remember, you aren’t taking the shower FIRST anymore –you’re doing it at the end!)...

You’ve got to get the niacin into the emu.  It literally would only take the contents of about four capsules (open them up and dump them in) for a four ounce bottle –that’s plenty.  With a new bottle, though, you don’t have much room to put it in –and not much room to shake it up.  You can use a dropper bottle or something, though.  I actually have been using little six ounce glass jars, mixing up a couple of ounces of emu with the contents of a couple of niacin capsules, and using a 6cc syringe to suck it up and put it on my head.

So, you’ll need some sort of extra container here.

The problem with this is that there is some capsule filler that doesn’t dissolve, so it’s gritty.  Well, there is another solution here that can avoid this.  What you can do is actually put the emu on your head FIRST, and then have a mixture of water with dissolved niacin caplets, and use a syringe and put the niacin water on SECOND.  I did this and it seems to work fine, too.  This way, you can avoid sucking up the filler in the syringe, too.

By the way, I ordered pure niacin without filler from purebulk.com and I’m going to see how that works. 

So, you put the emu oil/niacin on first –however you do it.  Then, you use the laser helmet, and I think you’ll find you’ll be able to get back up to the 20 minutes fairly soon.

Then, after your laser helmet, use a spoon to slice out a bit of coconut oil, and rub it in your hands for a few seconds.  It’ll melt very quickly, and then you massage it into your hair and scalp.

I can’t see how this wouldn’t totally eradicate your problem.  This is very similar to what some clinics do, and I think they do this for the dry hair problems that you have.  I’m sorry that I didn’t jump on this solution sooner!

-John (O.M.G.)

PS- Oh, you only have to leave the coconut oil in for 20 minutes or so!

DO ALL OF THAT, and I think you will be rewarded greatly!

Happy Thanksgiving!

So, that’s where we are right now I think, and definitely other talk about things like jojoba oil are welcome.  It might be best to actually rotate the after-laser oils.

-O.M.G.


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# 19 ]

November 23, 2011, 04:39 AM

Awesome O.M.G !
The e-mail you have copied here is really clear and straightforward.
Now I have to gather the internet to get these products (Again…the Netherlands sucks in these kind of thigs).

I am sure the solution will change a few times during the next couple of months, but is great that we are getting there!

 

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# 20 ]

November 26, 2011, 10:48 AM

Can other supps be added to this pretopical in addition to the niacin?

my thoughts were on supps that nourish a follicle


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# 21 ]

November 26, 2011, 03:06 PM

Hey, mj!

Yeah, I think you could do that!

What I’m doing, though, is keeping it simple during the lasering and only using ingredients that would directly help with LLLT, and then applying other ingredients (like the coconut oil) afterwards when the scalp is stimulated.  I’m already breaking my own rule a little bit, though, because I do really like just a trace of tea tree oil in the mix (one drop an ounce) because I really like the sensation when coupled with the niacin!  It makes it feel like magic is really happening, even though I know it’s just a “feeling”.  Still love it, though.

Everybody…

I got my first new order of emu oil and pure niacin:

316442_326644277352351_100000203445847_1531142_708775474_n.jpg

I got this brand here: http://www.amazon.com/Emu-Oil-Pure-Premium-Australian/dp/B001MWV40U/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1322337218&sr=8-2

Immortal actually found that one, and what’s pretty good is that there are A LOT of positive reviews for it (116 reviews and a 4 1/2 star rating still).  Most of them are for other things than hair loss, of course, and I really think that emu oil’s strength is laying the groundwork for other things like laser therapy to be more efffective.

I actually just used it for the first time (just took off the helmet), and I’ll tell you what I LIKE about it:

It’s really liquidy compared to some, and it has room at the top of the bottle.  This means that you can add the niacin, whatever directly to it, and shake it up.  It also has one of those dripper things in the top of it that makes it easier to pour smaller quantities on your head (I removed it with an icepick to put the ingredients in, by the way, and then put it back on).

I have no idea how good it is compared to other emu oils, though, but I’ve got a lot of it and I’ll use it!  With the dropper insert, I think that this bottle would last me a couple of months easiy -maybe more like three or four if I really wanted to string it out.  I’m probably going to use it on more days than laser therapy days, though, so it’ll go quicker.

Ok, I’m going to put coconut oil on my head!  That stuff is amazing on it’s own -and obviously made better by the emu oil and niacin on my head right now coupled with the stimulation from the laser helmet and the pulsedrive!

-O.M.G.


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# 22 ]

November 26, 2011, 04:55 PM

Oh, I forgot to mention this:

393645_326703287346450_100000203445847_1531257_1569912214_n.jpg

Your hair is going to be EXTREMELY OILY after the emu oil and followed by the coconut oil -don’t waste your GOOD SHAMPOO on the first hair wash in the shower!  I bought a big 32 ounce bottle of Dr. Bronner’s, and I use that first!

Man, it’s got great stuff in it on it’s own, so I think it’s great for getting out the emu and coconut oil -it actually has coconut oil in it (and jojoba), by the way!

This has been talked about a lot, but here are the ingredients:

DESCRIPTION:
Our most popular fragrance. The peppermint essential oil tingles the body and clears the mind. Because therapeutically peppermint oil is a mild stimulant it increases vitality and clarity. All oils and essential oils are certified organic to the National Organic Standards Program. Packaged in 100% post-consumer recycled plastic bottles.

INGREDIENTS:
Water, Organic Coconut Oil*, Potassium Hydroxide**, Organic Olive Oil*, Mentha Arvensis*, Organic Hemp Oil, Organic Jojoba Oil, Organic Peppermint Oil*, Citric Acid, Tocopherol
* CERTIFIED FAIR TRADE INGREDIENTS
** None remains after saponifying oils into soap and glycerin

I know that people will occasionally call out certain ingredients as bad, but the vast majority of experiences with using this as a MAIN SHAMPOO are overwhelmingly positive -and I think it’s perfect as simply an oil buster, or a “pre-shampoo” so we don’t needlessly waste our good hair loss shampoos.

Using a liquid, detergent free shampoo I think would be much better than bar soap anyway because the lye, etc. can put a residue in your hair that will weigh it down.

-O.M.G.


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# 23 ]

December 07, 2011, 07:05 AM

Could you indicate how much emu oil to use?
Like a few drops on your scalp, or let your hair take a bath in it…
Trying to order everything from the internet now and hoping to start next week :D

update:
Amazon is non existing over here…
Could you give me your opinion about the following emu-oils:

http://www.ebay.nl/itm/100-Pure-Australian-Emu-Oil-120-ml-/190508658167?pt=UK_Health_Beauty_Natural_AlternativeTherapies&hash=item2c5b336df7#ht_2467wt_1064

http://www.ebay.nl/itm/100-Pure-Australian-Emu-Oil-TRIPLE-PACK-Fast-FREE-P-P-/150698155046?pt=UK_Health_Beauty_Natural_AlternativeTherapies&hash=item23164f5c26#ht_8429wt_1139

and perhaps this shampoo
http://www.ebay.nl/itm/Natural-Thinning-Hair-Shampoo-with-Emu-Oil-250-ml-/380271151884?pt=UK_Health_Beauty_Hair_Care_Shampoo_Conditioner_PP&hash=item5889ed4b0c#ht_1451wt_1163

 

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# 24 ]

December 07, 2011, 08:24 AM

Just my own two cents on using an oil, pre-topical - for any women out there who are lasering, I have had good results using either evening primrose oil (estrogenic), lavender or rosemary oil once a week, pre-lasering. While you guys would NOT want to use these, I think they are very good for women who are post menopausal, or, in my personal boat, surgically or chemically post menopausal, and taking antic-cancer drugs which have alopecia as a side effect (so cruel, your hair or your life! Is it any wonder I thank God every day for my friend OMG?) I intend to try mixing in straight-up niacin capsules with the oil. Will report back. I understand this won’t really affect what the rest of you are doing but I want to at least be able to weigh in on how the niacin feels.

warmly
h

 

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# 25 ]

December 08, 2011, 03:09 PM

Anybody has as answer to the question above?
I would like to order the product before the weekend starts..

Thanks

 

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# 26 ]

December 08, 2011, 03:34 PM

Hey dZine!

The third one is a shampoo, but the first two are fine!  I’d probably go with the first one just based on the write ups -no other reasons except that it has some of the keywords of the ones that I’ve chosen.

-O.M.G.


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# 27 ]

January 09, 2012, 10:49 PM

I wanted to cut and paste this from another thread here because I’ve updated the topical a little bit!

I actually have a bit of evolution on the topical here!  First, though, as you guys know, I had a bit of a setback since I wasn’t able to use the helmet much this past month because of the pancreas/hospital thing, so I can’t report much on the niacin/emu except for what I already said in the other thread.  But I’m back using it this week and I actually implemented a great idea that I had lying around on pain killers for the first time tonight!

I do think that emu/niacin is the way to go (and don’t forget the coconut oil afterwards!) -and DEFINITELY I think we all need to use niacin no matter how we mix it, even if it’s just in water.  I think that definitely the polysorbate 80/alcohol should be used before showers when you can, though (like on non-laser days when you don’t have coconut oil or heavy amounts of emu oil in your hair).

I still don’t like covering my head with a lot of emu because it’s just too thick for me, so I thought I’d mix it with WATER (and niacin and alcohol) and put it in a SPRAY BOTTLE.  It seems like it worked ok, and the good thing is that I really think this will stretch out the emu oil for a really long time.

I didn’t do anything scientific here, I just sort of mixed together the ingredients -you have to start somewhere!

I bought a spray bottle, and I put about six ounces of water in it, and I dissolved about a teaspoon of my pure niacin in it (I got that from purebulk.com so I wouldn’t have to deal with fillers).  Then, I put what I’m guessing to be about 10% emu in it -maybe a little more.  I actually might add a bit more next time.  I put in a few squirts of polysorbate 80 because it keeps the emu oil from globbing up like a lava lamp.  I finally put a little ethyl alcohol in it simply because I know that this does aid penetration, and I know that skin treated with alcohol first has better results with laser therapy.  I didn’t add much, just a few splashes.  I shook it up and sprayed.

I like the way it feels, and after only a few sprays my entire head was wet.  It smelled like emu, too, and it was “greasy” so I could tell that emu was definitely on my head -just MUCH THINNER.  After a few minutes, the niacin really took effect -and I think that the alcohol really helped that, too.

So, I really think this is a good solution.  I’m guessing that it’s just as effective as covering your head with think, slimy emu oil.  It’ll be MUCH EASIER to wash out, too!

That’s my evolution of this, and I’m probably going to cut and paste this into that original thread!

-O.M.G.

That’s it -SPRAY BOTTLE.  That’s where I am right now on this!


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# 28 ]

January 10, 2012, 04:14 AM

OK thank you for the update…
My own share:
because I was curious about the poly80 I actually dissolved the niacin in the poly80/niacon solution (this stuff: http://minoxidildirect.com/polysorbate_80.htm) together with water and some alcohol..
I apply this to the scalp using a dropper. After that I put on the emu-oil.

However, I agree that getting the emu oil everywhere either requires a lot of oil or a specialized hand.

Throwing this in a spray bottle will most likely do the trick. Won’t the poly80 be to thick for the spray?

(p.s. I still do not feel ANY stimulation after doing this)

 

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# 29 ]

January 10, 2012, 10:44 AM

No, you just use a little bit of polysorbate 80!  Maybe it was about 20-30 drops or so.  It completely dissolves, and I’m not sure if it’s enough to keep the emu and the water permanently mixed, but it’s enough to keep it together for hours after shaking it up.


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# 30 ]

February 28, 2012, 08:27 PM

I just order this:

http://www.justnaturalskincare.com/hair-loss/bald-spot-treatment-hair-loss.html

I think I’m going to do the pre-laser therapy treatment as discussed above, but then this product instead of the coconut oil afterwards. What do ya think?

 

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# 31 ]

February 28, 2012, 09:12 PM

Hey, Tanner84!

That actually looks like some good stuff:

Aloe Vera Leaf Juice, Tucuma Butter, Shea Butter, Nettle Root Extract, Sea Buckthorn Oil, Jojoba Oil, Mowrah Butter, Ucuuba Butter, Plantain Extract, Noni Fruit Extract, Olive Leaf Extract, Pumpkin Seed Extract, Carrot Root Oil, Vegetable Emulsifier, Essential Oils of Sweet Orange, Patchouli, Sage, Lemongrass, Panthenol Vitamin B5, Vitamin E.

A lot of those ingredients are talked about a good bit.  The good thing is that after laser therapy, the ingredients should penetrate much better.

At some point, definitely check out the coconut oil so you have something to compare it to!

-O.M.G.

 


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# 32 ]

February 28, 2012, 11:38 PM

Yeah it does; I’ll for sure try coconut oil though and maybe change it up ever so often. I’ve got coconut oil in the pantry from cooking with it. Also maybe if I can grow some friggin’ hair I’ll use it as a product to style it. It’s super waxy as you know.

 

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# 33 ]

March 05, 2012, 02:36 AM

I’ve been away from the message boards for a few years but since I’ve decided to drop fin I’m getting back into reading the new methods etc ... Anyway with regards to Niacin, its purpose would be to enhance vasodilation before lasering right? Has anyone thought of taking Nitric Oxide supplements internally, say 30 min before lasering? I take some 30 min before workouts to get bigger muscle pumps as I think it saturates your cells or something…. Could the same premise work here for lasering?  It’s super popular for bodybuilding.

 

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# 34 ]

March 13, 2012, 10:10 PM

Willy C - I’m not sure if it would work the same way. I’ve taking vasodilators orally before as well, and I’ve never noticed a flush like I did when using a spritz of water + niacin on my scalp. You can really feel it as well as see it to believe it. In my opinion a local application of the niacin will be much more effective than an oral dose.

 

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tanner84

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# 35 ]

March 13, 2012, 10:12 PM

So I did a basic search for niacin + LLLT and found some guys on the various forums talking about these ingredients in a pre-laser topical:

Deonized water, Ethanol, Niacin, D-panthenol, Lipolic Acid, Stinging nettie, Copper Magnesium, Iodine derived from seaweed

You obviously see the ethanol, niacin, etc. Does anyone know more about the other ingredients? Maybe the copper magnesium helps with inflammation, etc.?

 

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