Joe - Question about 30 month window

   
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NDW

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January 08, 2012, 11:44 PM

Do you think that your 30 month window theory applies to types of hair loss other than MPB. Lets say a woman has had diffuse thinning for 5yrs. Do you think she will be able to regrow hair lost more than 30 months ago after whatever was causing the problem is resolved?

 

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Lapwing

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# 1 ]

January 09, 2012, 12:53 AM

NDW,

I am not Joe, but in general alopecia areata (AA) is non-scarring.  MPB on the other hand has the infamous fibrotic scarring of the follicles, which causes the 30 month window.  It is virtually impossible to grow hair in scar tissue, hence the 30 month window.  This window period is based on a research study paper that showed that burned out MPB follicles are effectively scarred over by 30 months.  Most reliable long term observers of MPB agree with this window.  My feeling is for MPB sufferers, you are damn lucky if you get back 15 months.  Almost no one gets back 30 months except a statistically insignificant few.  If someone claims to have beaten the 30 month window, you could almost be certain he either had AA and not MPB or he is lying. 

However, non-MPB sufferers in general can reclaim significantly more hair back and do not suffer the 30 month rule.  Sometimes some scarring can happen in AA, but it is not such a big deal as for MPB sufferers.

 

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Viking

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# 2 ]

January 09, 2012, 04:30 AM

Acell is changing the scaring totally… I’m about to do Acell + PRP.. I really like the rational behind it and scarring might be the major issue alongside DHT.
Maby that is the reason behind lllt pulsing is suposed to be better (in “dissolving” the scarring) compared to a constat lllt.

Cheers

 

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yanks1

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January 09, 2012, 02:16 PM

Yea scarring and calcification are big issues in regard to obtaining regrowth, but there are a lot of treatments you can try to fight these issues… For calcification, vit K2(MK-4 and MK-7), magnesium, potassium, and vit D3 (I choose not to take D3 bc of an unproven theory of it actually being an immunosuppressant, but there are tons of studies and showing great benefit from its use). The 3 besides D3 are in “Decalcify” from the Ortho supplement line. Great product! EDTA is also supposed to be amazing at clearing out calcification, but it can be dangerous if you don’t know what you’re doing. It’s chelates beneficial minerals at the same time so supplementing is a must. I think OMG was experimenting with topical EDTA, but I’m not sure how it went.

For scarring, LLLT supposedly helps. If pulsing is really that much better at breaking up scarring I might have to splurge and pick me up a PulseDrive! Also, Iodine is crucial when it comes to scarring. If supplementing make sure to go slow and get all the cofactors or you won’t have fun with it(detox reactions)! Selenium is crucial and salt loading is supposed to be very helpful if you experience and ill effects. However, you can also do a topical solution of iodine. I mix it with colloidal silver and it helps with inflammation as well as holds the potential for some regeneration and breaking up of fibrosis. One more topical that helped Prague a lot was topical papaine (papaya enzyme). He had regrowth from using a topical preperation of papaine in papaya oil (with hyaluronic acid I believe as well. To promote new healthy collagen after breaking up the fibrosis). Others have used different enzymes like bromelaine.

So all in all you have a lot of options in going forward against scarring/calcification. First thing is stopping the process. If we can do that, then patients and experimentation (without being overzealous! I’ve made more than one mistake when trying to do too much, too fast, without enough research) are key

 

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# 4 ]

January 09, 2012, 04:02 PM

Quite a list there Yanks!
I use the Ortho line and I will continue untill I die smile

Any thoughts on acell in this respect? I seams to be your area so to say smile

 

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dZine

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# 5 ]

January 09, 2012, 05:10 PM

When does dis 30 month window start..

Would it (theoretically) start when you begin your regiment, or does it goes along with time…

I will try to explain.

Say, on 1-1-2010 I start with my LLLT regiment.
Would I in theory be able to go back 30 months, to 1-6-2007, or does the time window slides along with using my regimen..

So say by 1-1-2011 my regiment starts to show some results, can I still go back to 1-6-2007 or would it be to 1-6-2008?

(of course this is not exact, of course the 30 month window is an estimated guess, but my question makes a big difference..)

 

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NDW

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# 6 ]

January 09, 2012, 10:38 PM

Thank for responses. I understand now.

dZine -  Here is my vague definition of the 30 month window. - You have 30 months to try to regrow a hair after it has fallen out. If it did not regrow within 30 months of when it fell out; it will never do so. Obviously this does not apply to a healthy hair that has fallen out as part of its natural cycle. A follicle afflicted with MPB will produce smaller and smaller hairs, until finally, it does no longer produce a hair at all. You have 30 months after it produced its last hair. (i think) And like Lapwing said its probably more like 15 months.

 

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bear101

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January 09, 2012, 10:51 PM

So if you have a ton miniaturized hairs all over your head, the 30 month window does not apply until these hairs finally reach their endpoint (really small vellus hairs) and fallout without growing back?

 

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Lapwing

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January 10, 2012, 09:25 PM

bear101,

That is probably true, but the follicles with miniaturized hair are already compromised and many may not ever go back to terminal hairs. 

The sad thing is you don’t notice balding spots until you have already lost about 50% of your hair in that area.  It takes a while to lose those hairs so you will lose a lot of those to the 30 month window you never knew you had.

dZine,

The way I think the 30 month window applies to my hair is this.  I realized in 7/2007 my hair loss is real and getting significant.  By 10/2007 I was on a routine that stop my hair loss.  So the best hair level I can get back to is 30 months in the past from that point, i.e., 4/2005.  That would be awesome, however I think I got back 15 months.  So I am at my 7/2006 hair level.  I am working on trying to overcome the scarring so that maybe I can reclaim some more of the most recently scarred over follicles. 

I am not very optimistic about overcoming scarring, but who knows.  My scalp is significantly less tight now.  So there is hope.  I just got my pulsedrive so I am curious to see how pulsed lllt will work.  2012 could be an awesome year.  At least I still have most of my hair.

 

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neutron

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# 9 ]

January 10, 2012, 10:05 PM

This is a very interesting topic as I have diffuse thinning all over my scalp.  Ive experienced alot of miniturization all over so i know alot of this will never get fully thick again.  However, My goal would be to save the thicker hairs and try to thicken up the ones that arent that far miniturized.  I started experience hairloss very young, about 19 and im now 31.  At this point I would like to maintain and add a bit of thickness and just hold out.

 

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The Zix Creator

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# 10 ]

January 11, 2012, 05:03 PM

Hi NDW

Do you think that your 30 month window theory applies to types of hair loss other than MPB. Lets say a woman has had diffuse thinning for 5yrs. Do you think she will be able to regrow hair lost more than 30 months ago after whatever was causing the problem is resolved?

In my opinion it would probably only apply to androgen type hair loss. However with women the situation is a bit different. Androgen type hair loss in women typically results in the hair all over the scalp growing hairs that are thinner and shorter. Therefore few if any of the follicles have been miniaturized and capped with fibrosis.

It also tends to explain why, in my experience, women can get better results than men when they effectively treat androgen type loss. Hope this helps. Sorry to take so long to respond.

 

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NDW

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# 11 ]

January 13, 2012, 04:06 PM

So the theory is that fibrosis is the main reason people with MPB cannot regrow past 30 months? What are the other factors?

I will also add that vitamin e can theoretically prevent / reverse fibrosis, and is something to look in to for someone just realizing that they are losing hair via MPB.

 

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January 13, 2012, 04:55 PM

Miniaturization. I think we think of this inaccurately. We tend to think the follicle is small but still viable. I believe this is wrong. A follicle is an organelle….meaning “tiny organ”. Like any organ it has structures. Miniaturization destroys these structures and they can never be rebuilt.

Suppose we took a functioning kidney and destroyed it down to the size of a pea. The structures that are responsible for it’s function would be destroyed. Now there would still be cells in this tiny kidney that would still be alive however for all practical purposes it would never be able to be regenerated to function properly ever again.

 

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bear101

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# 13 ]

January 13, 2012, 07:52 PM

Miniaturization. I think we think of this inaccurately. We tend to think the follicle is small but still viable. I believe this is wrong. A follicle is an organelle….meaning “tiny organ”. Like any organ it has structures. Miniaturization destroys these structures and they can never be rebuilt.

Suppose we took a functioning kidney and destroyed it down to the size of a pea. The structures that are responsible for it’s function would be destroyed. Now there would still be cells in this tiny kidney that would still be alive however for all practical purposes it would never be able to be regenerated to function properly ever again.

How small does the follicle have to be before it can’t be helped by treatment? What is the threshold?

For example, if some hairs have partially miniaturized and grow to 2 inches but no longer can those follicles still be repaired by treatment?

 

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January 13, 2012, 08:10 PM

I don’t think anyone really knows for sure the answer to that question. My guess is that any follicle that has been partially miniaturized but still grows a terminal hair can be repaired to some degree. Some recovery can take place but I doubt that full recovery can ever occur.

I think we need to look at hair loss the way we look at many diseases. Take glaucoma. When you effectively treat it as soon as possible, some vision is restored but not all of your vision is restored. However early treatment can prevent you from going totally blind as well.

We need to effectively intervene at the first sign of hair loss. We need to stop it from getting worse, maybe even regrow some hair. Then if we are still not satisfied we get a hair transplant and then continue our treatments so we don’t lose anymore hair.

However there is much confusion as to what an effective treatments protocol is. Everyone seems to have a different opinion. I have my opinion but many people disagree with me.

 

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Lapwing

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# 15 ]

January 14, 2012, 10:14 PM

Zix,

I think there might be new hope for miniaturized hairs with PG analogs.  Bimatoprost might help us reclaim some of those compromised hairs from those damage follicles.  It won’t be a silver bullet, but I am hoping it might add 10% more hair.  This should become available in two years.  And in maybe 10 years we can do something about the long-term scarred over follicles with some type of stem cell therapy.

For many of us, hopefully myself, a hair transplant will not be necessary.  I am not oppose to it, but I am ok-ish enough now to avoid it.  I think good things are in store for us who have halted our moderate hair loss.  The scarred over regions and/or follicles will be the hardest to treat and may not be totally recoverable, so further prevention and halting any further hair loss is most important now as you stated. 

 

 

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January 15, 2012, 01:06 PM

Hi Lapwing. I sure hope you’re right. But the older I get the more I realize that stuff always takes longer than we first figured on. I’ve been hearing about stem cells for decades now and nothing ever really seems to happen.

But I still hope you’re right!

 

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