natural DHT inhibitor

   
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vulture

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January 23, 2012, 08:31 PM

Are there any natural DHT inhibitors you can suggest that work to replace the topical finasteride I was using?  I really feel my hair loss (crown area) is DHT related.  I tried saw palmetto once and it had no effect on me except a mild stomach ache (maybe I tried a bad brand).  I do take many of the IH supplements now but would welcome any suggestions.

 

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Lapwing

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# 1 ]

January 23, 2012, 10:31 PM

Internals: curcumin, 7 hmr lignans, nettle root, green tea, soy.  Topicals: caffeine anhydrous powder added into shampoo, Tea tree oil.  Supposedly LLLT as well.  Ideally you need to do internal supplements, topicals, LLLT, clean diet, cut out sugar, get good sleep and exercise, and minimize stress.  Also use a good non-sls organic shampoo daily.  Excess sebum+dht=disaster.  For the natural route to be successful, you have to go the whole nine yards and more.

 

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mj

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January 24, 2012, 07:25 AM

two topicals come to mind: zix is natural and inexpensive.  Revivogen is natural, supported by studies to massively reduce dht,  but expensive


Tried a lot of things, never stuck with anything. Don’t do that

 

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Corleone

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January 24, 2012, 02:10 PM

I’ve had solid success with epilobium.  There’s a link at the very top section of this website titled “Natural DHT Inhibition” with some good info on epilobium and other natural alternatives.

 

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Kazbar

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January 24, 2012, 06:21 PM

Hi Corleone,
    Just wondering what epilobium product you can recommend that is working for you?

Thanks,
Kazbar

 

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vulture

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January 24, 2012, 10:35 PM

see below

 

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vulture

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January 24, 2012, 11:33 PM

Thanks to everyone who replied. 

Lapwing: I am currently using curcumin and green tea internals as well as consuming tea and soy during the day.  I will add nettle and 7hmr lignans (I did take the lignans when they first appeared on IH’s regimen but dropped them when he pulled it some years ago- you are a longtime poster I remember you from regrowth.com posting days, I respect your opinion).  I will look to get the caffeine powder - can I just put some powder on my hand and then mix it with some shampoo? If not, what’s the mixture ratio?  (Already using organic non-sls shampoo- non-chemical zero paraben cosmetics have become an imperative for me.)  I will try TTO.  My exercise regimen was minimized due to my groin pain but now that I am almost recovered it should pick up in February.  I do need to get more sleep, but that is a tough one for me.  I consume some small amounts of sugar (maybe one dessert a day- nothing ridiculous).  I am waiting for the messiah- the laser version, but not sure what the ETA is on that.  (I have been using the hairmax false-messiah religiously (lol) - over 6 years 3 times a week - and it does make my scalp feel better immediately after use but the results aren’t there, and OMG explained why- can’t wait for the 400 diodes vs. the 1 diode I am using now)

mj: I am interested in revivogen, zix and rejuveplex- but really only want to do one or two topicals max. Which are the best to use, if money is no object- is it the zix /rejuveplex combo as you’ve been doing or revivogen? I am also curious about your continued use of Fin- is there a reason for it if the other treatments are up to the job?

Corleone:  I am interested in epilobium- is the application topical or ingestible?  I couldn’t find the link- could you repost it here?

It may be that the best move for me would be to return to what worked for over 5 years (topical fin 0.25 mg concentrate) regain the hair I’ve lost in the crown and then go natural once everything above is in place.  I am very afraid of a groin pain relapse but I also don’t like this itchy feeling and thinning crown.

 

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mj

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January 25, 2012, 12:27 AM

The zix rejuveplex combo has no studies yet to back it up, I believe Revivogen does.  Take that at face value, but i’m sticking with zix and rejuveplex for now even though they’re really just an experiment.

As for the fin, I believe strongly that hair loss is best fought on many fronts, and that includes something that limits DHT internally. I spent some time putting this regimen together, making sure it was cost effective yet versatile in the fight against hair loss.  And two months into it, my hair looks great, feels great, but there has been no miracle…. the thin areas are still thin.

One thing I will say….I can hold my head over a sink and scrub my hair with my fingers and nothing falls out.  that’s never happened before.  I noticed this after one week of using curcumin and resveratrol in the zix, but that could just be coincidence.


Tried a lot of things, never stuck with anything. Don’t do that

 

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January 25, 2012, 12:59 AM

vulture - There is a natural DHT inhibitor that Evolution Hair Centers sells called DHT Probiotic. Its the combination of 3 natural DHT inhibiting compounds. This formula was inspired by a german study on specific ratios of these three ingredients. You can find it here: http://laser.hairgrowthcenters.com/bid/47218/Hair-Loss-Product-Spotlight-DHT-Probiotic

I don’t want to chase down the study, but you sure can! If you don’t want to pay the price for the one I have linked, perhaps you could fomulate your own, that is, if you can find the study.

Why on earth are you eating soy? Soy increases estrogen. Estrogen is your enemy. Here is one of ten million articles you can find on the matter: http://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/soys-negative-effects

 

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Lapwing

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January 25, 2012, 03:04 AM

NDW,

On soy that is myth, imo.  There is 10 million other articles based on research fact to the contrary.  Don’t be a soy hater.  Anyway the politics of money and food feed the misinformation machine both ways really.  I hate it, it is hard to find the truth with when there is so much prejudice out there both ways for and against.  If anyone is concerned about soy, just do the research yourself with an open mind.  And be prepared to spend many hours.  I find the weight of the evidence to show soy is beneficial for men.  I am pretty intuned with my body and it tells me it benefits me as well.

 

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Corleone

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January 25, 2012, 01:12 PM

The link to the section on this site discussing Natural DHT Inhibition is here: http://www.worldhairloss.org/index.php/wiki/Natural_DHT_Inhibition  I fo.und it very helpful.

I buy my epilobium at ProstMD.com.  Truthfully that’s the only website I found selling it.  I think there’s an old thread somewhere on here discussing epilobium and that’s where I found ProstMD.

It’s ingestible…you just mix a dozen drops or so in water or other liquid.  Trust me, if you don’t mix and just drink it directly, it tastes awful!

 

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NDW

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January 25, 2012, 03:58 PM

Lapwing - Are you in the US? 90% of US grown soy is genetically modified. Soy has been linked to everything from brain damage to impaired thyroid function. It has been accused of inhibiting the function of important minerals, disrupting endocrine function as well as causing pancreatic problems. I highly doubt soy is guilty of everything it has been accused of, but if it’s guilty of even 1 of every 10 charges, it’s certainly not helping the situation.
There is a lot of motivation for studies to find the benefits of soy. That motivation is the billion dollar soy industry. What motivation is there to find unfavorable information on soy?

Do you have children? Lets say you do have children. Would you even want to risk leaving them alone with a man when there is a lot of evidence that he could be a murderer or child molester? Even if there is plenty evidence to the contrary, why would you want to take the risk? Most parents wont even risk leaving their kids with a male baby-sitter. Female only. You have to have an incredible amount of faith in your research, and the studies you are researching to want to actively increase your soy intake. For me, all the negative press is too much. There is too much circumstantial evidence that non-fermented soy is just garbage.

I’m not trying to get into a soy debate here. For one, i’m not qualified, and two, it’s pointless. I’m not even religiously avoiding soy, it’s in everything. It’s not something i’m actively trying to get more of though.

 

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January 25, 2012, 04:06 PM

BTW if you are taking soy there is probably no need for HMRLignans. They both contain phytoestrogens, which can occupy a receptor and prevent more potent forms of estrogens like xenoestrogen from doing so. I could be wrong though.

 

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January 25, 2012, 04:33 PM

This is a subject that needs discussion in my opinion. Why does fin cause side effects to begin with? Well it causes side effects because it lowers the natural hormone DHT. So in theory anything you used to do this be it natural or unnatural would also cause the very same side effects. It’s more complicated than that however. But fin doesn’t cause side effects because it is “unnatural”. It causes side effects because it lowers DHT. Now there is an opinon that fin also raises estogen levels and this is mostly responsible for side effects. I also do not believe this.

This is why I think DHT is something that should be attacked topically. That way we can dramatically lower the dose of things that lower DHT. Then we can take that lowered dose and target it directly to where we need it. So in a sense the follicles get a high dose but the rest of the body get’s a tiny dose. Therefore no side effects.

I still doubt the long term wisdom of taking anything orally .... be it natural or unnatural to lower DHT. Unless it is a very very low dose.

At any rate I think we really need to get other opinons on this subject and discuss it thoroughly.

 

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January 25, 2012, 06:28 PM

Zix—

Epilobium works on a different mechanism than Saw Palmetto/Beta-Sis and Propecia to curb DHT.  It actually increases libido, and also inhibits COX-2…the stuff’s really amazing. 

vulture—

ProstMD is the correct brand, but more specifically, use the one that the creator of ProstMD created specifically for hair loss:

http://www.folicamd.com/

You may also be interested in trying this…

Purchase a few pounds of organic dried nettles (cheap, and you won’t run out anytime soon).  Throw a tablespoon or so into a couple cups of water, and boil it.  When it cools down, save it for the END of your shower.  Then, dump it all over your head and massage it in well.

Oh yea…you’re going to want to strain the water when you remove it from the pot so that you don’t get nettles all over your head/scalp. wink

Very potent anti-inflammatory and I’ve seen some conjecture about it helping with DHT as well.  I’ve given this a go in the past and should start doing it again, definitely seemed to help.  Then again, my current regimen is doing pretty good as well.

RejuvePlex has some good testimonials so far that I’ve been receiving privately.  Recently, there has been a public thread on it as well:

http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/t6949-rejuveplex-testimonial

 

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vulture

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January 25, 2012, 08:45 PM

Wow.  Big appreciation for all the responses.  I especially appreciate the topical solution inventors and longtime posters - nidhogge and zix creator chiming in with their 2 cents.  I will likely end up trying all of these options one by one- at least the natural topical applications suggested here. 

Just underwent my first TTO application tonight- nice cooling action initially.  I will see about getting my hands on some epilobium next. Regarding the soy, I used to consume this deliberately in larger quantities but scaled back after IH came out with an article about how soy raises estrogen.  That said, I live with a Japanese woman and green tea and soy based products are just a part of life, not necessarily a treatment.  My health overall has improved in adopting her diet, along with regular adherence to much of the IH supplement regimen with some variation for personal preferences.

I will keep you posted on what works the best for me in terms of the suggestions made here.  Perhaps I should change my user name to guinea pig (lol).  The goal is to find a replacement for the topical finasteride I had used regularly for 5 years, minus the sides- which for me are brain fog (really makes me much slower and less productive) and groin pain (this one is scary).  I can’t deny the topical fin is amazing for stopping inflammation in its tracks and regrowing hair in the affected area.  I’ll see if I can find a natural alternative from the selection provided and let you know.

 

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Lapwing

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January 26, 2012, 02:00 AM

NDW,

One motivation to find unfavorable info on soy is because it cuts into profits of the beef industry to the tune of many billions of dollars.  People kill and die for that kind of money, at least that has been my observation.

I am from California, some people might not consider that the US.  I eat and buy strictly organic soy products.  I eat tempeh (a fermented soy product) over tofu mostly.  I don’t want to get into an argument either over soy.  The processed and fast food industry is trying to kill us all with their crap foods from over-process soy products to twinkies.  Not to mention GM foods, pesticides, herbicides, antibiotics, real animal hormones in milk and meat(not some plant maybe wannabe hormones.)  Then there is all the packaging and lining problems such as plastics and BPA in your canned foods, bottles, etc.  Many of the cooking pans and utensils are not safe and leech off into the unsuspecting consumer.  And Mcdonalds french fries never decay!  It is not even food at that point.  God only knows what chemicals and preservatives go into that.  This is only the surface.  There are many perils when it comes to eating food. 

Plus I think sugar is pretty evil, but that is whole another story.  Everywhere I go when I see kids having parties, what are they eating?—Pizza (nasty generic low level chain pizza), store bought cakes, french fries, and drinking colas by the quarts.  I think it is appalling what adults are doing to their children. 

I will just comment that many of your arguments would equally apply to almost anything from red meat to just breathing air.

 

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The Zix Creator

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January 28, 2012, 11:10 PM

Nid I appreciate your opinion but it still doesn’t answer my question. Fin cuts systemic and follicular DHT.  It is the altering of this natural hormone that causes the side effects. Therefore it seems to me that anything, regardless of mechanism of action, that lowers the natural level of this natural hormone is going to bring about side effects. We are also gradually learning that sometimes these side effects can be permanent. If you take a natural substance and you do not experience these side effects then the easiest explanation is that it is not working at lowering DHT.

In my opinion DHT isn’t something we should mess with systemically. DHT is something we should only attack topically. Unless there is something that I’m not understanding here.

By attacking the problem topically….we can specifically target the follicles with a high dose of a compound yet use very little to accomplish this. For example suppose we had an itchy spot on our arm. We could take a benadryl capsule (antihistamine) and the itch would go away. However we would no doubt get very sleepy because that is the side effect of the benadryl. However if we instead apply a benadryl cream to our arm, the itch would go away as well. But in this scenario we used probably 1/50th the dose of benadryl therefore we will not have the side effect of sleepiness.

 

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January 28, 2012, 11:26 PM

I will just comment that many of your arguments would equally apply to almost anything from red meat to just breathing air

Hi lapwing. I personally think the toxin doing the most damage to us is not in the food we eat but rather the air we breathe. I did some research on this last year. Would you believe in weight we take in significantly more pounds of air than food!

Also consider the food we eat passes through the filtration system of our GI tract. The air we breathe passes directly into our blood stream! What will get you more stoned? Smoking a joint or eating a joint? What will deliver more nicotine to your blood stream….smoking a cigarette or eating it?

Now consider further that the air indoors is far more toxic than the air outdoors. First the very same pollutants in the air ourside are also inside. But everything in the indoor environment is also in the air. The particles from the breakdown of everything man made are in the air in your home. The carpeting, the plastics, the paints, varnishes etc.

The lungs deliver stuff right into our bloodstream! Think about it! Now what we can do about it is an entirely different matter. Most of us have some degree of control over what we put in our mouth but little control over the air we breathe.

A good HEPA and carbon filter would be a good start though.

 

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January 29, 2012, 12:20 AM

I agree with The Zix Creator about only treating DHT topically and not internally. I’m a pre-medical student, and I’m about to apply to medical school this May. In my studies we learned about feedback inhibition pathways. Basically, even if you were to lower the amounts of DHT in the blood somehow by cutting off the enzyme 5AR for example, your body would and should find other ways to increase levels of DHT. It’s the feedback inhibition principle.

For example:
This is the basic pathway from Testosterone to DHT

Testosterone—-> 5-alpha reductase—-> Dihydrotestosterone (DHT)

Say you take away half of the enzyme 5-alpha reductase… the body will just flood more testosterone into the pathway and you will still come out with the same amount of DHT in the blood. It’s like a chemical equation and Le Chatelier’s Principle. You could also somehow figure out ways to break down DHT molecules, but the body would respond by just making more. We need DHT… but if we can figure out a way to “blast” it from our stem cells that produce keratin at the hair follicle, the stem cells could come online again, and we’d get new growth.

Tell me how to do that! I’ve got hundreds of vellus hairs, and if I could find something to get rid of the DHT on my scalp, I know I’d be able to grow my hair back. Plus, I really need a laser messiah helmet!

 

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January 29, 2012, 02:39 AM

tanner84 - Scalp biopsies of those on finasteride show large increases of 5AR. The body is trying to increase DHT, but you can still get a good decade or more of improved hair, or halted hair loss with a DHT reducing agent. It’s a slow process.

Imagine what would happen if you suddenly stopped taking finasteride after using it for years.

 

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vulture

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January 29, 2012, 12:55 PM

Imagine what would happen if you suddenly stopped taking finasteride after using it for years.

I think I can speak to that.  Interestingly enough, I only used topical finasteride during those years with supposedly a solution concentration of 0.25 mg.  There is no doubt in my mind that the current side effects I am experiencing are attributable to this application- despite the transdermal delivery.  To Zix’s point, it could be that other more serious sides did not manifest, due to the fact that I wasn’t ingesting this stuff at higher concentrations.  As for the quote above, it is hard to determine whether the DHT effect (itchy scalp / miniaturization of hair follicles and shedding) is more prominent now than it was 5 years ago.  I am quite certain that without the treatment during the interim 5 years I would have gone bald in the affected area.

 

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January 29, 2012, 04:10 PM

Zix,

I agree with you somewhat about the air, which scares me a lot because I live in LA.  Talk about toxic air!  I would have to wear a gas mask all the time to stay safe.

Hey guys if anyone is concerned, and I think we should all be aware what causes our estrogen levels to rise as we get older.  From what I gather if one is reasonably healthy and off meds then the two main culprits are fat (being overweight) and then alcohol.  So the best way to keep your estrogen levels normal and healthy for most guys is to stay lean and drink very moderately for the most part.  It is not evil tofu that is going to get you here, it is the all american beer and pizza, burger and fries style diet.  Soy and other foods like it are only minor players at best.  If you have hypothyroidism and/or abnormally high estrogen levels then by all means soy should be off the menu on any kind of regular basis.

 

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The Zix Creator

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January 29, 2012, 07:44 PM

You know in my experience there are two things that enable me to feel my best. The first is to exercise regularly and the second is to eat a great deal less. It doesn’t seem to matter what I eat as long as I eat significantly less calories.

 

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tanner84

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January 29, 2012, 08:57 PM

Zix - is the super zix II formula geared mainly towards inhibiting DHT topically? I think I have read on one of these threads that that was the case. I’m thinking about either doing revivogen or your product.

 

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January 29, 2012, 09:29 PM

Yep. To me it’s all about cutting DHT. It’s the one thing we absolutely know. We know hair loss is a combination of gentically suceptible follicles and androgens. We can’t change our genetics therefore we have to block DHT. Furthermore if we successfully do this, we also reduce inflammation. That’s why fin was originally designed for reducing inflammation of the prostate. Reduce DHT, you reduce inflammation.

 

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January 29, 2012, 10:18 PM

When I went to see a homeopathic doctor, she looked at my scalp with a “ProScalp” tool like an electronic microscope. We saw hundreds of little white/blonde vellus hairs coming out of follicles, and of course other follicles with 1-2 dark strands jutting out. Also at the base of many of the follicles was a small red dot a little bit bigger than the actual follicle pore. She said that this was inflammation - and could possibly be another factor of my hair loss.

So here’s what I’m thinking - the follicles with the vellus hairs - they are still active, but severely choked off by DHT causing inflammation as well as turning the keratin producing stem cells “off”. If we can dislodge the DHT from the stem cells and rejuvenate them with biostimulation (LLLT), I can possibly get dark hairs coming out of those follicles. Am I right?

Do you think that the super zix II formula can actually dislodge or somehow denature the DHT molecules that are currently at those stem cell receptor sites? I think if we can figure out how to do this, and then encourage these cells to function like they used to, we’d have tons of regrowth.

I’m 27, and my hair has only gotten bad over the last few years, but I’m confident that if I do 6 months + of laser protocol with the laser messiah (once I can get one) and use a formula like yours, I can achieve some great results. Especially after seeing the hundreds of vellus hairs… in now way am I past the point of no return (the 30 month window after the last hair from the follicle is produced and falls out). Penny for your thoughts? smile

 

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January 29, 2012, 11:37 PM

Zix,

I agree.  Exercise and a smart lean diet is best whether your vegan, pagan, cave man, mediterranean, whatever.  Wise calorie consumption is the key: sugar, bad fats, crap carbs make it hard to maintain.  That is one of the reasons fries, cheese, white bread, and beer are off my menu.  It is ok to eat badly on rare occasion, but the less I eat badly the less I crave it.

 

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January 30, 2012, 12:00 AM

Lapwing i’m curious to see if you are opposed to fruits and why. I consume a lot of fruit and orange juice but am interested in opposing research or articles. Regarding beer, is it the gluten you are trying to avoid or what?

 

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Lapwing

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January 30, 2012, 04:01 PM

NDW,

I am not opposed to fruits in general.  I eat fruits in moderation.  I think it is ok to eat a little more fruit in the hotter months of summer.  I think fruit juice beyond a small glass is awful for people.  Way too many calories, the fruit acid is bad for your teeth, plus you have to be careful on getting “real” juice.  I use to drink OJ by the jug.  Now I almost never drink juice and I would never drink more than 6 ounces now.  In the old days they use to have these small glasses for fruit juice.  Somewhere in the last of half of the 20th century they supersized it along with just about everything else, all to our health detriment.  My normal whole fruits are blueberries, strawberries, cantaloupes, and every once a while bananas.

I think it is much better to get your vitamins and minerals from veggies for the most part.  I do eat one serving of fruit just about every day though.

On beer, my body doesn’t seem to have any main gluten issues as far as I can tell.  The problem with beer is the calories and the quick conversion to sugar in your body.  It tends to make a person fat, hence less athletic ability and more estrogen.  I consider beer a young man’s drink, i.e., someone who doesn’t know better and can’t afford better.  I still love beer, but it is the white bread of alcohol.  I now mostly drink red wine in moderation.  I in general avoid mix drinks with sugar.  So no red bull and vodka, rum and coke, etc.  But occasionally I will drink a fun mix drink, and I drink beer only on about 7 days of the year now.  There was a time when my fridge always had beer stocked in it, but I got older and wiser.

 

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The Zix Creator

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# 30 ]

January 30, 2012, 05:25 PM

Do you think that the super zix II formula can actually dislodge or somehow denature the DHT molecules that are currently at those stem cell receptor sites? I think if we can figure out how to do this, and then encourage these cells to function like they used to, we’d have tons of regrowth.

I’m 27, and my hair has only gotten bad over the last few years, but I’m confident that if I do 6 months + of laser protocol with the laser messiah (once I can get one) and use a formula like yours, I can achieve some great results. Especially after seeing the hundreds of vellus hairs… in now way am I past the point of no return (the 30 month window after the last hair from the follicle is produced and falls out). Penny for your thoughts?

I doubt you will see tons of regrowth. I believe this is physiologically impossible. You may see some regrowth but I am uncomfortable with you hoping to see “tons of regrowth”. People that start treatment with these high expectations generally give up when the results are less than desirable…..and in fact they almost always are.

A better long term approach is to stop the situation from getting worse and hopefully regrow some hair in the process. Sorry to be a kill joy but I would rather you went into the whole thing with a lowered expectation and a committment to treating this problem for the rest of your life. If you stop hair loss from worsening you could consider a hair transplant to get back most of what you lost. Then you’d be done with it. You’d never need another transplant because the condition would no longer be worsening due to your treatment regimen.

Keep in mind however that delaying treatment has consequences. The sooner you start the more hair you can save and the more hair you can regrow. If you think your hair is bad now…..fast forward 5 years from now and the condition will probably significantly worse without treatment.

 

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# 31 ]

January 30, 2012, 05:26 PM

Going now to run my 7 miles for the 4th day in a row. For me nothing makes me healthier than exercising!

 

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# 32 ]

February 02, 2012, 10:47 PM

Zix—

Very rarely do I answer scientific questions in a scientific manner (not a scientist); I simply research stuff that I’m interested in, and then try to encourage others to do the same and share my perspective on what I’ve come across.  The research on Epilobium that I’ve looked at in the past along with personal and anecdotal accounts has suggested that it works on a different mechanism.  This could be, perhaps, because it normalizes your body’s DHT levels as opposed to just damming them up like some cracked out beaver on a rampage (fin and saw palmetto).

I also disagree that DHT is the “one thing we absolutely know”.  The one thing that we ABSOLUTELY know is that inflammation is the culprit for the majority of disorders and diseases out there.  There are countless bodies of research on the inflammatory factor…heck, when you see “-itis” at the end of any ailment, that very word is defined as “inflammation”.  DHT is simply a hormone, nothing more, nothing less.  It doesn’t cause a hair follicle to fall out.  It may supply Demodex mites with the hormones that they can’t naturally produce in order to reproduce their population exponentially based on how much DHT is available in scalp, which is in turn due to excessive overall bodily production of this hormone due to estrogenic imbalances from endogenous and exogenous factors, however, that’s neither here nor there…*deep breath*

One should look into what the cause of their inflammation is…whether it be heavy metals, flora imbalance, or a parasite on a rampage. 

 

 

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# 33 ]

February 03, 2012, 12:01 AM

There is only one thing we absolutely know, if you cut your balls off, you will stop your MPB.  It may not be absolute, but it is probably at least true in 98+% of the cases.  Castration trumps genes, inflammation and every other pathway off the map.  Unfortunately the cure is way worse than the disease.

I been on these boards too long, everything just goes around in circles.  My belief is the best we can do outside of castration and chemical castration(fin etc) is to stop our hair loss and get some modest regrowth.  Hopefully in the near future someone will figure out how to regrow hair in our dead scarred-over follicles.  Prevention and maintenance of existing hair now is most important for the best possible outcome in the future when these more sophisticated hair regrowth and stimulant methods become commercially available. 

Virtually no one gets massive regrowth at the present time.  There are a lucky few who do, but they are basically statistically insignificant, ie, your odds of being one of them is almost zero.  And even fresh castrates and the best fin responders are still bound by the 30 month window, and that is the best you can do against MPB.

 

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# 34 ]

February 03, 2012, 02:41 PM

Lapwing—

The idea of castration working supports the notion that MPB is entirely hormonal in nature (at the very initial stage).  Due to the western diet and culture, our estrogens and test levels just aren’t where they were in our parents’ generation.  Hair loss in your teens/20s back then, even in your 30s, was a pretty infrequent thing.  I believe that it wasn’t until more artificial crap and meat/dairy hormones were introduced into the food supply (I believe in the 80s, maybe late 70s) that hair loss started to become an “epidemic” for younger people.

A hair follicle can’t “die” since we’re talking about stem cells here.  Stem cells can always be rebooted.

 

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# 35 ]

February 03, 2012, 05:58 PM

Nidhogge,

Ok, strike the word dead from my statement.  The fact that the follicle is completely compromised, non-functioning, scarred over, and useless for growing hair, is about as close to death as you can get.  It does not change the meaning of my statement much, but it allows more hope for the future.


I only looked briefly online, but I can’t find any studies on the increased prevalence (or earlier incidence) of MPB in the United States in modern times.  If you have some studies, I would like to see them.  I am not saying this to cause trouble, I would simply like to know if this is indeed a fact or not.  I don’t want speculation or anecdotal evidence.  Where is there real scientific method study based evidence for this supposed epidemic?

My personal evidence points to contrary.  I am less bald than both my Dad and Grandfather when they were my age.  My grandfather had his own farm and raised his own food.  Plenty of sunlight, fresh air, healthy labor, and untainted wholesome food and he was bald as cue ball.  As far as I know he did not have any bad habits or illnesses. 

 

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# 36 ]

February 03, 2012, 08:58 PM

Lapwing—

Here are a few thoughts in reply to your own…

A follicle being scarred over isn’t completely compromised in my view as scar tissue and calcium deposits can be removed through natural and even artificial means.  This is probably why wounding studies are all the rage now; removing that first layer of skin (the strata corneum) and stimulating new stem cell growth.

http://www.xconomy.com/boston/2011/01/04/follica-co-founder-and-team-find-new-clues-about-male-baldness/

How can you really find a study that states that people balded less in their teens and twenties 30+ years ago vs. now?  That’d be an incredibly expensive thing to compile for absolutely no financial benefit to the compilee.  Remember—studies rarely occur out of the goodness of someone’s heart…if you’re going to plop down some big money, you’re only doing it to make even bigger money.  Science is business.

That said, anecdotal evidence will virtually always trump anything that scientific studies come up with.  We have drugs getting approved left-and-right by the FDA that are deemed “safe” based on phase I, II, and III trials that result in thousands of deaths per year.  The FDA then yanks these products off of the market and lawsuits come flying at said company.  The anecdotal evidence there is the fact that people were dying or getting sick…anecdotal = real world.  Scientific study = isolated, fictional world.  Shaman throughout the millennia and other medicine men of various tribal peoples pass their knowledge down, and have the ability to heal things that we can’t even get near with our science, yet they’ve never conducted phase I, II, or III trials to determine efficacy.  Science is important as a guide, but do remember that it is a man-made concept that can constrain just as much as it can augment our intellect and common sense.

In this instance, the anedcotal evidence would be to simply speak to your parents and grandparents.  Ask them how frequently they saw balding kids in high school and college/twenties.  I’ll bet you that it’ll be about as frequent as seeing an overweight kid back then.

Your personal evidence is just that—personal.  How do you know that you don’t have a thyroid condition in your family?  Many people are deficient in Iodine (I think Dr. Brownstein claimed 90%!), and a healthy amount of that mineral in our body is necessary for optimal thyroid function.  If we have too little of a mineral in our body, our bodies prioritize where those minerals are utilized based on need and hair, unfortunately, is a pretty low priority next to the brain, semen production, and so forth.  Even raising your own food and eating off the land won’t necessarily yield enough iodine intake.  It’s not to say that’s what your father/grandfather were plagued by, but the idea that Male Patterned Baldness is attributed to just one factor is just simply not true…

- Stress
- Adrenal Fatigue
- Thyroid Health
- Hormonal Imbalance
- Excessive inflammation
- Parasite Over-Population
- Flora Imbalance

The list goes on…

 

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# 37 ]

February 03, 2012, 10:11 PM

I didn’t attribute anything to one factor.  All said is castration is the one known cure.  That is an incontrovertible fact.  Basically it is the one absolute thing we know.  I agree that ones genetics are greatly influenced by ones environment.  I never said different. 

Personally I don’t see this epidemic you speak of with such strong belief.  Probably a more objective way to test this idea would be a big examination of army photographs throughout the last 100 years.  There you have a bunch of young guys over the right time period.  It might be something to look into.  I would look into something myself if I had time.


 

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# 38 ]

February 03, 2012, 10:32 PM

Lapwing—

My grandfather’s army photograph is actually one of the things that popped into my mind when I wrote that prior reply—at least 30 men, all with full heads of hair in their 20s.

I reckon that the majority of MPB is attributable to hormonal imbalance, and that castration takes care of that.  Though, if one’s hair loss isn’t directly attributable to hormones, then it’s most likely something to do with the adrenals and thyroid.  Castration makes perfect sense, as without the testes, testosterone levels are essentially neutered, keeping your estrogen levels higher than other men.  As a result, the increased femininity yields hair like females have.

 

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# 39 ]

February 03, 2012, 11:02 PM

Nid - thanks for posting that link. I skimmed the study, and it confirmed my beliefs on stem cells and their role with MPB. I’m wondering now though - do you think doing micro-needling once a week, and on a different day (once a week as well) doing an enzyme peel is effective in removing the strata corneum to stimulate new stem cell growth?

I just started using Revivogen. In the next couple of weeks I’m going to visit the homeopathic doctor again with my urine analysis and blood work to see what’s going on internally. At that point, I’m going to get those pictures of my scalp magnified and post them on here! In addition, I want to schedule a skype consultation with the guy behind Immortal Hair, and hopefully with his recommendation throw in Rejuveplex.

I appreciate Zix trying to be real with me - in fact I asked for it. I have no delusions that my hair will ever be as thick as it was when I was 18, but I do think that I can get those vellus hair sites that are “up there” right now to fall out and become terminal. That’s what I’m talking about when I think of regrowth. I’ve consulted with a dermatologist and the homeopathic doctor, and they both suggested that this is a possibility. So I’ve got revivogen to block DHT from the scalp and hopefully cause a reverse miniaturization of the hairs that are present (this is in accordance to their claims). If rejuveplex fits into this regimen, then I’m all for it. LLLT should be a big help once I can get a laser messiah helmet, and I’d be more than willing to get on immortal’s supplements for 6+ months to see what they can do for me.

 

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# 40 ]

February 04, 2012, 02:30 AM

Nidhogge,

That is wild.  I thought of some other tests as well.  Maybe someone could poll long-term college professors and high school teachers and see if they have observed more balding in students now than in the past.

I never said there was no hope for the future.  I said hold onto your hair now for these upcoming more sophisticated methods of generating hair regrowth.  My hope is that this will happen soon, my fear it could be 10+ years. 

tanner64 and Nid,
Are you guys not concerned about causing more damage than good by removing the strata corneum?  Certainly there has got to be some risk involved.  I would be careful.  It is there to protect underlying tissue from infection, dehydration, chemicals and mechanical stress.  And if you accidentally go deeper, you can immediately damage the underlying living tissue.

LLLT is definitely great for your hair, at least is for me and many others.  I am happily lllt-ing as I write.

 

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# 41 ]

February 04, 2012, 02:31 AM

Nidhogge,

That is wild.  I thought of some other tests as well.  Maybe someone could poll long-term college professors and high school teachers and see if they have observed more balding in students now than in the past.

I never said there was no hope for the future.  I said hold onto your hair now for these upcoming more sophisticated methods of generating hair regrowth.  My hope is that this will happen soon, my fear it could be 10+ years. 

tanner64 and Nid,
Are you guys not concerned about causing more damage than good by removing the strata corneum?  Certainly there has got to be some risk involved.  I would be careful.  It is there to protect underlying tissue from infection, dehydration, chemicals and mechanical stress.  And if you accidentally go deeper, you can immediately damage the underlying living tissue.

LLLT is definitely great for your hair, at least is for me and many others.  I am happily lllt-ing as I write.

 

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# 42 ]

February 04, 2012, 02:40 AM

One more thing I wanted to add.

If more young guys are indeed getting balder than in the past, one also has to account for the widespread use of anti-depressents and accutane.  I would also throw into consideration sports supplement such as creatine and anabolic steriods etc.  All these things can contribute to hair loss and they have all become widespread in the last 30 years among America’s youth. 

Hair loss from celexa and other anti-depressants
Celexa (citalopram) is an anti-depressant medication in the SSRI (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor) category. While many patients have reported hair loss from celexa, this has not been definitively proven. However, it is thought that hair loss from celexa may result from the depletion of protein and amino acids while this drug is being taken. Since hair is primarily made up of protein, this theory on hair loss from celexa is definitely a valid one. When discussing anti-depressant choices with your doctor, be aware that in addition to hair loss from celexa, other SSRIs have been linked to hair loss:

Prozac (fluoxetine)
Paxil (paroxetine)
Zoloft (sertraline)
Can accutane cause hair loss?
Accutane (isotretinoin) is another drug that has been frequently documented to cause hair loss. Used for the treatment of severe acne, most accutane-induced hair loss occurs to people in their teenage years and early twenties (both male and female). Hair loss from accutane is a controversial topic, because accutane users report a wide variety of hair loss symptoms. Some suffer hair loss only a few days after beginning use of accutane, while others do not see any hair loss at all until after they stop using the drug. Some can regrow their hair, while others suffer permanent hair loss.

 

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# 43 ]

February 04, 2012, 04:26 AM

Lapwing - What does the increase in anti-depressants tell you? I think it points straight to the things Nidhogge has brought up. The anti-depressants are down-stream.

 

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# 44 ]

February 04, 2012, 01:18 PM

NDW,

That is a good point.  I hate the widespread use of anti-depressants.  I have known so many people who have or who still are taking them.  I think it is due to the irresponsibility of the drug pushing medical profession along with the unnatural fast food/junk food lifestyle most people lived these days.

 

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# 45 ]

February 05, 2012, 01:02 AM

I took accutane hmmm

 

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# 46 ]

February 05, 2012, 03:09 AM

I have no doubt in my mind that DHT plays a critical role in male pattern baldness (also known as androgenetic alopecia). It’s highly probable that stress or some other environmental factor could even turn on genes associated with MPB. Frankly I do not think MPB is a disease, but rather or trait or condition.

Yes, inflammation can cause hair loss and in the case of MPB most of it is related to DHT binding and the subsequent inflammation and apoptosis factors produced by it. Treating inflammation produced by DHT with LLLT is quite plausible. But inflammation without some sort of hormonal or genetic component will never produce a pattern like we see in androgenetic alopecia. The worst inflammation I have in my scalp by far is the folliculitis in my permanent region that I’ve had for almost 20 years, yet there is no thinning there. Also worth noting is my hair is oiliest in the back and sides of my head.

A thyroid condition would cause generalized hair thinning, but not in a clear defined pattern. Again there is no way you can explain the pattern soley based on inflammation.

Also I can believe veteran posters, that a product is working for them even if it is not FDA-approved, but in general, sound scientific studies should be used to separate the snake oils from the legitimate treatments.

 

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# 47 ]

February 05, 2012, 10:27 PM

The definition of disease:

disease /dis·ease/ (dĭ-zēz´) any deviation from or interruption of the normal structure or function of any body part, organ, or system that is manifested by a characteristic set of symptoms and signs and whose etiology, pathology, and prognosis may be known or unknown.

Heart disease is still a disease even though is common.  So I would say MPB is a disease even though it is common.  That does not mean it is not a trait as well, but that it is still a disease. 

MPB: what we know, being a male is the main cause; not all males get it.  So the probable order in importance is 1) Hormones 2) Genetics 3)Environment.  We have some say over 1 and 3.  So MPB can be halted for many of us.  However people who are strongly genetically determined to have MPB will have the hardest battle to halt their hair loss.

Of course we all would love to have scientific studies, but those same studies have lied about the side effects of many FDA-approved drugs.  Plus with the 30 month window(ie, the window of time of best recovery due to the physiological “irreversible” fibrotic scarring of the scalp hair follicles), I wouldn’t wait for the science to come through myself.  Unfortunately if you have this disease, you don’t have the luxury to wait. 

There is a lot of hair loss posts on lot of forums.  So in lieu of science you can use these forums and some common sense to ferret out of the snake oils to some extent.

 

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# 48 ]

February 05, 2012, 11:45 PM

A hair follicle can’t “die” since we’re talking about stem cells here.  Stem cells can always be rebooted.

Hi Nid. I agree we have evidence to support the fact that a hair follicle never dies. But your argument doesn’t make sense to me. We have cases when, for medical reason, castration is necessary. They’ve surgically removed the testes of various males with various stages of male pattern baldness. This will stop further regression. However they don’t regrow much hair back. Only the most recently lost hair grows back.

So your saying the thyroid is the reason? Are you saying estrogen would regrow the lost hair? If that’s the fundemental reason and the follicles are still viable, why don’t they regrow all their hair eventually? What am I not understanding here? Are you saying if we treat their thyroid they would regrow all their hair? Does every single person that has a degree of MPB and has had their testes removed have a thyroid disorder? Every single one of them?

I think it’s much more plausible to imagine the follicle as a tiny organ. It has structures that are critical to it’s function. It is what’s known as an “organelle”. If you took a kidney and shrunk it down to the size of a pea, it would still have viable cells. But it would never be able to be restored to normal function. The same is the case with a follicle. Things can be damaged beyond repair.

 

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# 49 ]

February 05, 2012, 11:49 PM

Bear and lapwing….you’ve made some great points.

Concerning stress. Seems to me that stress is definitely bad for our hair. I wrote this article on stress a few months ago in case you guys didn’t see it.

http://www.qdbd.com/stress_accelerated_androgenic_balding.htm

 

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# 50 ]

May 15, 2012, 10:09 PM

Update - 3 months off topical finasteride

Main Regimen:

1) Zix II topical - morning and evening after shower

2) Epilobium topical - midday if I get an itchy scalp

3) Laser messiah with pulse drive 3 x a week for 20 minutes - applying emu oil and niacin pre-topicals before treatment

4) Internals 1 capsule morning and evening: Ecklonia Cava, R Lipoic Acid, Krill Oil, Vitamin D, Acetyl L Carnetyne, Green Tea

Regarding the above treatments:

Joe the Zix Creator is a genius.  He has come up with a formula which controls DHT without the sides of finasteride.  No joke.  This stuff works- it is a miracle.  Cannot thank you enough.  Zix is not as powerful as topical fin.  It took longer than topical finasteride to experience the benefits (regrown hair and irritation abatement).  But the results are there.  He is also an all-around honest, nice guy.  When my first shipment didn’t arrive on time he comped me the full price.  I owe him double next time around.

I use an epilobium topical when I experience midday itchiness in the scalp.  Highly recommend this to DHT sufferers who have itchy scalps.  It alleviates the itch on contact and lasts a considerable amount of time.  I find that it does not negatively impact the other treatments I am using.

Neither of these 2 topicals is oily or smelly so very user friendly.

I think I’d like to wait until month 6 to report on the laser messiah but I do feel it is helping because I notice a general improvement in my hair and scalp condition after using it consistently. 

The internals I was using previously while on topical fin (so I can’t comment too much) - but I still notice when I forget to take these.

Honorable mention: Tea tree oil- didn’t provide lasting help for DHT itch (just an hour of relief or so) but it is an excellent cure if you have a boil or other skin irritation (discovered by accident). Rejuveplex - this is an interesting topical that relieves skin irritation on contact but the effects just didn’t last long enough for my case- where DHT itch returned too soon (1 - 2 hours).  Nidhogge does offer super fast delivery and great service.  Highly recommended if your irritation is localized and non-DHT driven.

Thank you to all those who provided advice and / or treatments.  You have prolonged my youth and improved my health.  Much appreciation.

 

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# 51 ]

May 19, 2012, 09:38 AM

Hey Zix.  Im going to place an order for super zix2 today.  I just have one quick question if you dont mind.  Is hair muck an adjunct to super zix2 or is it a necessary component to the treatment? I really cant wait to get started.

Anyway, this was a great topic that i really enjoyed. Its so unfortunated that doctors cannot discuss anything more than minoxidil or fisnasteride.  I know they base everything on scientific studies but it seems as though the fda approval really dictates everything. I feel that a demotologist could at least spean to the inflamtion element. A medical doctor making money off hairlosss dianoses should at very leSt address that simple factor. I learn so much valuable information here that i wish was available upon my first hairloss related visit to the der twelve years ago. I really think the way doctors handle this currently is a bit of a disgrace. Basically, they take a quick glance at your scalp, and write a script for finasteride.  If your lucky they may go all out that day and mention nizoral shampoo. If anything irritates your scalp your shit out of luck.  I get that doctors dont want to speak about experimental treatments, but it honestly? doesnt even seem like yhey even know of any of the current research. Do they really know this little or are they simply whores to the pharmaceutical companies

 

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# 52 ]

May 19, 2012, 04:18 PM

Hi Neutron.

The Super Zix II kit includes the Hair Muck.

Yea I could go on and on about conventional medicine. But I could go on and on about alternative medicine. Bullshit comes from both sides of the fence. Both can be dangerous. Both can be effective. Both can give you side effects. Then throw in the fact that we’re half nuts regarding our hair to begin with and the whole process of finding some answers can be madening.

We have to weed through it all somehow.

 

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# 53 ]

May 20, 2012, 10:01 AM

Thanks Zix!

There definately is bs on both sides. Kind of like politics. Anyway, im very realistic about the results to expect. Im 32 now so if my hair can looklike it did at 30 again I would be happy. My main focus is to slow down shedding and improve hair quality.  I have diffuse thinning so i believe this would be a big improvement.

 

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# 54 ]

May 20, 2012, 02:56 PM

Vuture….thanks for the kind words. Glad to hear you’re having some success.

joe

 

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Mastery

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# 55 ]

June 02, 2012, 10:20 PM

Sea buckthorn oil works as a topical to inhibit DHT. As does working out (or having sex) at 8am and 8pm!

 

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# 56 ]

June 02, 2012, 10:24 PM

vulture - January 23, 2012, 08:31 PM

Are there any natural DHT inhibitors you can suggest that work to replace the topical finasteride I was using?  I really feel my hair loss (crown area) is DHT related.  I tried saw palmetto once and it had no effect on me except a mild stomach ache (maybe I tried a bad brand).  I do take many of the IH supplements now but would welcome any suggestions.


Rebuilding crown loss for me has at times been straight forward via LLLT, De calcify - K2, K4, K7 and Mg, plus LIfe extension tocotrienols.

Good luck.

 

 

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# 57 ]

September 29, 2012, 09:12 PM

About 2 months following my last post on this thread, I found I started shedding quite badly.  I went from a NW 2.5 to an NW 4.  I didn’t report in because I was quite discouraged.  I got so discouraged that I went back (for one day only) to the topical propecia again.  I felt the groin pain flare up and knew without a shadow of a doubt that I would rather be bald than take this poison.  The Zix II topical formula I was taking night and day as a substitute was working on the inflammation, but after 2 months it wasn’t working long or strong enough for me- I was going bald.  Nonetheless I continued my laser sessions with my 300 diode pulse drive messiah (thanks OMG).  But I needed to change something.  I found Lipogaine, which has many of the ingredients that are in the Zix formula along with Minoxidil and Azelaic acid.  You probably can get the same thing for cheaper if you go with Joe the Zix Creator’s minomuck and a minoxidil / azelaic acid combo.  I had never taken minoxidil before.  I found that it does have some side effects- headache at times, discomfort in the eyes.  But these sides didn’t last too long and the results I’ve been getting- NW 4 back to NW 3 along with long lasting relief from scalp itch- tip the scales in my view.  (I was taking Epilobium too but I’ve stopped now.)  I also think that lasering is crucial to minimizing inflammation and maintaining a healthy scalp.

Current regimen:

Core -
- Lipogaine twice daily (AM and PM)
- laser helmet 3 x per week (20 minute intervals with pre-topicals)
- a few drops of seabuckthorn oil applied topically to the crown (only at night)... thanks to Mastery and Nidhogge
- various supplements twice daily (AM and PM)
- all natural shampoo

Auxilliary -
- Super Zix 2 (when itchy or I want to take a break from using lipogaine (to keep hair soft/clean look- etc…)
- blend of rosemary oil (sometimes with tea tree oil) and aloe (midday if itchy)

It’s ironic that I started this thread with every intention of finding an all-natural solution but arrived at a solution that is anything but.  The good news is that at least it’s a solution- it’s working for me.  Can’t complain about that.

 

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# 58 ]

October 17, 2012, 09:02 PM

I also started using lipogaine recently.  I’ve used minox before and this is the only one I’ve actually liked other than the ultra expensive formula known as Promox….which was really good, just too expensive.  I’ve been on Lipogaine for 3 months now along with topical nuhair (which I think is considered a natural product) and the occassional lasering.  My hair has several thin areas, none completely bald The hair strands look thicker and darker since they did 3 months ago, but I haven’t seen any regrowth per se.  I never have from any treatment I’ve ever used.  Still, my hair looks great and I’m extremely pleased with lipogaine.
Jason thin to thick shampoo has been a nice addition too.

I’ve used zix, I believe it’s a good product, but I’m happier with Lipogaine for now. Zix is much more affordable though..lipogaine is about $30 dollars a month on amazon.  As for rejuveplex, I still don’t know what to think about it.  I think they have great intentions, and have done an impressive amount of research.  I wish them the best of luck and great success, in the end it just didn’t seem to do much for me other than make hair and skin feel very soft.

I’ve also been down that all natural intention before and for me I’ve found that it’s better to go wtih a mix of both medicine and all natural.


Tried a lot of things, never stuck with anything. Don’t do that

 

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