same amount of joules from a smaller cluster of lasers.
 Member Total Posts: 23 Member Since: |
February 26, 2010, 01:02 PM I know that the laser helmets give out 4-6 joules in 20 minutes of usage. But im wanting to know if a smaller cluster of lasers say 12 lasers with the same laser specifications as the helmet ie. |
 Editor Total Posts: 811 Member Since: |
[ # 1 ] February 26, 2010, 03:41 PM Yep! Each laser diode -without a lens cap, perched at the height of about a brush bristle above the skin- gives about 5 joules in 20 minutes to the area of skin below it. So, if you have 500 diodes -all spaced so they don’t overlap, and they simply just cover more of a total area- you’ll still get about 5 joules in 20 minutes. If you have 12 lasers, they will still give about 5 joules, just to a smaller area. So, the reason for a higher amount of diodes is not a matter of energy, it’s a matter of coverage. It’s true that *some* energy does spread past rectangular footprint of the diode, but unfortunately a lot of misinformation was spread on this topic by companies that use a very small amount of diodes , and this painted a very WRONG picture that this amount was actually significant. It’s not significant -plus, the level of energy gets a heck of a lot weaker from the center of the rectangular footprint to the edges, so just that fact alone would mean that the energy spreading out would be minimal. You may even remember that LaserMax used to say that one diode was enough to provide the proper energy to a ONE SQUARE INCH AREA -hence the “LaserMax 50” was “all you needed”. That is absolute nonsense, and don’t believe me… believe the scores of people that used the lasermax 50 and didn’t get results, and believe the huge success rate from the people that used device with more diodes, closer together. The science didn’t change… the devices did! The reason I mentioned all of that was because it’s not like having a much bigger coverage area all of a sudden takes you from 5 joules to 8 joules or something. That’s what people seem to have mental hang-ups over, so I wanted to clarify that. What DOES happen, though, is that it seems like the more coverage you have, the more positive, beneficial chemicals get produced that do have a regional benefit. It seems like if you stimulate a huge area, more benefits occur for whatever reason. Anyway, yes, the point I’m making is that it’s the coverage plus as even of energy as you can get to that area that is the key. The reason the Laser Messiah and the other DIY devices were so successful is because it very simply gets that very same 5 joules to a greater area. Hope that makes sense! -O.M.G. |
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Member Total Posts: 23 Member Since: |
[ # 2 ] February 26, 2010, 04:51 PM Yea that makes sense thanks O.M.G, Just one thing though, are you saying its ok for the lasers to overlap at the outer edges of the rectangular footprint to make the energy of the outer edges stronger. But the centre of the rectangular footprints of each laser should NOT overlap one another. Also how far does the laser penertrate throught the skin at brush bristle distance? Thanks |
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Editor Total Posts: 811 Member Since: |
[ # 3 ] February 26, 2010, 05:11 PM Yeah, in fact I think overlapping on the edges might be something that would result in more “even power levels”! I haven’t thoroughly tested all of that though, but it’s on my to-do list. I’m going to buy a really good laser power/wavelength tester one day and I’ll get to do all of that. However, the real problem is that you just can’t get the footprint of the diode as good as you’d like it to be when it’s actually on a curved head. So, you start accepting “close enough”! If the edges overlap, great… if the edges don’t overlap, that’s fine, too! I think the answer to your last question is somewhere between 4mm to 6mm -obviously the edges of the rectangles not penetrating as much as the center because it’s less powerful and because it’s hitting at an angle, but I don’t think that is negating the effectiveness by any means. I’m not sure that depth is a big key to laser therapy, though… Guanitz’s machines use 635nm diodes that penetrate less, and they still work. Devices with higher wavelength diodes that will ensure that follicles get the energy don’t seem to work as well -at least that what I’ve gathered. I think the key is “simply red”, no… not the band, the color. It’s the wavelength that provides the most energy to produce ATP to feed the mitochondria in the tissue, and that goes to the follicles, too. All theory, of course, but that’s what seems to be playing out! |
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Member Total Posts: 23 Member Since: |
[ # 4 ] February 26, 2010, 05:21 PM
Thanks for the answers buddy. |
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Editor Total Posts: 811 Member Since: |
[ # 5 ] February 26, 2010, 05:34 PM Yep! Duration is the key! 40 minutes should be 10 joules. By the way, not to confuse you, but since we are talking about time here… some studies have shown that it might be BETTER if we made it so that 40 minutes actually gave us 5 joules, not 10! Meaning, if we actually used 2mW diodes for 40 minutes or longer, we might have better results than we would with the same amount of energy at 20 minutes. It’s all just theoretical -and it’s NEVER been done with any clinic type device, not even in any tests as far as Dr. Maricle knows (and he knows about most of them)- but a laser helmet with 2mW diodes might be better than a laser helmet with 5mW diodes. One day I want to test this, too. The reason is that there is a TIME ELEMENT involved with some of this in that the longer the exposure -NO MATTER WHAT THE ENERGY LEVEL IS- the more benefits occur. So, the longer time you stretch out that 6 joule limit, the better. Unfortunately, people usually ASSUME that the opposite would be true because of the erroneous “stronger must be better” fallacy coupled with the fact that a lot of those unethical higher-powered diode device companies made all of those bogus graphs to show that it takes higher powered devices to get better results (not true AT ALL). It actually could be the case that LOWER POWERED DEVICES may get better results, at least theoretically! However, I think that having to wear the helmet for an hour might be a royal pain in the ass. I think finding 20 minutes is hard enough as it is! lol… |
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Member Total Posts: 23 Member Since: |
[ # 6 ] February 26, 2010, 06:06 PM Maybe the slower release of energy is better utilised or obsorbed much more efficiently or just the duration of stimulation is the key as you mentioned. Be very interesting to see the that approach be put to the test. |
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Editor Total Posts: 811 Member Since: |
[ # 7 ] February 26, 2010, 06:21 PM I have a blog on one aspect of this, which is in regards to S.O.D. production: “The importance of S.O.D., and why 5mW (yes, I said FIVE milliwatt) laser diodes are GRRRRRRRRREAT!!!” The main gist is this: “The SOD activity, first of all, depends on irradiation time, but not on intensity or wavelength of irradiation.” SOD is really beneficial for fighting hair loss, and a study found that no matter what power of lasers were being used, the SAME AMOUNT of SOD was being produced. Therefore, a longer exposure time would mean more SOD production. So, there is something to just being stimulated with laser light that -strong or weak- that triggers good things to start happening. I wrote that, by the way, on the heals of the higher-powered diode douchebags always making up bullshit that their diodes were better -yet having zero evidence to back it up (ESPECIALLY with results). So, that’s what I entitled it “...why 5mW diodes are great” instead of “...why 2mW diodes might be better”. You know, I should go ahead and update the wiki with all of the info about why you don’t want to use higher powered diodes. There is SO MUCH EVIDENCE that states that they are harmful to tissue, they provide less positive benefits due to the shortened time you use them, etc. I’ll have to do that soon just in case that argument starts popping up again. I think most people “get it” now, though, that diodes that are halfway to being able to burn a cd and can cause blindness aren’t good for your scalp. |
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Build your own Laser Helmet | Laser Brush | Laser Device at OverMachoGrande.com! The internet’s first, best, and biggest consumer advocate site on laser therapy for hair loss! It’s time to educate yourself about one of the greatest treatments in FORUM HISTORY… |
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