My personal take on Magnesium Oil

   
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marcelo

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Total Posts: 93

Member Since:
February 2010

March 15, 2010, 02:01 AM

IN A NUTSHELL - DIGESTED POST IF YOU ARE FEELING LAZY/DON’T CARE TO READ MORE

1) Mag “Oil” could/should work in androgenetic alopecia by removing calcium deposits from malnourished follicles in perifollicular areas… However,

2) Mag “Oil” DOES NOT absorb well through skin when in aqueous only solution, unless you literally bathe in it extensively. It is an Ion and Ions don’t cross skin barriers easily

      -Just remember the last time you took extensive baths in swimming pool or in the ocean. Did you get sick by ALL the absorved Cl/Mg/Ca/P/etc ions? Not likely..  Well, if ions crossed skin easily then you WOULD get sick and probably die!

      -If it would absorb so well as purported, it wouldn’t leave a white “dandruff” on your skin/scalp after usage. Remember minox “white dandruff”? it is actually the unabsorved part. Well, with epsom salts soaking and mag oil topical use, the white “dandruff” is made by ALL the Mg ions unabsorved on the skin.

      -Also, if Ions DID penetrate skin easily and significatively, there wouldn-t be a need for Iontophoretic machines! *LOL*

2) Magnesium salts (be it mag “oil” or epsom Salts ALWAYS dissolve in water to Mg ion + “other” ions, chloride and sulphate respectively, AND THEY ARE EXACTLY THE SAME IONS!!! So if anyways you insist on using it topically, then I would suggest you use edible, food grade USP Epsom Salts (they don’t have heavy metals either) dissolved in distilled water (hell, you could even use plain drinking water!)  + cheap organic “Celtic” salts (they provide even more olligoelements than the mag “oil”!) instead of Mag “Oil” as this is 564 times more expensive weight by weight!

3) If you would STILL use expensive mag “oil” anyways, then I would suggest you use it orally instead, though it has mild laxative effects.

4) If you won’t have it orally, but STILL will use expensive mag “oil” topically, because you REALLY believe in it’s effectivenes by this route, then I suggest you try a hot bath or sauna or instead use hot wraps on your scalp for 5 minutes and THEN apply the “Oil” AND/OR do it before after exercise.
- A derma roller might also help a bit…

5) If you won’t follow the sauna/hot head wraps and/or exercise suggestion you could:
-Add to Minoxidil OR add to Super Zix topical OR do your own Mag “Oil” topical with Ethanol.

6) If you want to have the calcium deposits taken off your starved, malnourished follicles then you could use BENTONITE CLAY INSTEAD -a cheap non glorified version of French green montmorellonite-

6) If you are an avid follower/believer of Mag “Oil” and STILL will use it topically on scalp and in armpits no matter what then:

A) If you would like to contribute and show me I am wrong then please go to a lab, and have them test your urine for Mg+, Then use the Mag “Oil” by rubbing on scalp and armpits say for a week, then have your urine tested for Mg+ again and compare the two. It shouldn’t be expensive or hard to do! OR provide links to articles showing high ion absorption rates “per se” without a non aqueous carrier/solvent.

B) If you don’t care, and you still will use it no matter what, and you won’t contribute because you think I am a nut case and the Mag “Oil” sales persons know better and are there only to help you….. And you believe their mag ions MUST BE VERY SPECIAL SOMEHOW, as they cost 546 times more than “normal” mortal Magnesium ions, after all, it must be true if they sell it over the web…. right? if it is so for you, then I must wish you SINCERE good luck and I admonish to read no further!

Please join the discussion and brainstorm/ comment all you want! This is called the mastermind
principle!

THANKS FOR READING!

———————————————————————————————————————————————————-
FULL POST - DOWN THE RABBIT HOLE

Okay, I am relatively new to the hairloss forums and posting on them, etc.
I’ve seen alot of posts that show theres much usage of these oil, so this is my personal take on this.

DISCLAIMER:
I could be right, I could be wrong. This is my personal opinion and I am not bashing anyone or anything, or trying to take hope away from any treatment, so don’t jump at me. Take this for the value it has as my offering to you from my theorizing. And excuse my typos, grammar errors or syntax inexactitudes as english is not my native tongue, also, remember , this is no academic dissertation, but more of a “straw man” theorizing and rambling of mine, and I AM a doctor and have a master’s degree on medical sciences, but this isn’t a orthodox or dogmatic view, or medical advice! So please feel free to comment and mind storm here as much as you will. This is my offering to you, so without further ado:

First off,
There is no such thing as magnesium oil, as magnesium mineral doesn’t have a lipid chemical species.. There is, however a water/magnesium solution which feels “greasy” to the touch on the skin… Thus maybe thats why people say it’s an oil… Anyways, this particular magnesium is actually magnesium chloride: MgCl2(H2O)x, x depending on hydrating state, generally hexahydrate, thus, an ion, more specifically an anion.

It’s solubility is about 50g/100 ml water at body temperature, that is by definition 50% (w/v). So any magnesium “oil” solution can’t have any more than 50% “potency”, unless you use a co-solvent like alcohol, PEG, DMSO, etc.

Now, magnesium chloride or “mag oil” purportedly could be useful to help male pattern androgenetic alopecia/baldness by leeching calcium+ ioins from the perifollicular fibrosis/calcification areas and thus freeing of our famined hair follicles, and this is a very logical and great idea!

Now, the question is, how is it going to get down there?

To the best of my knowledge, to be really honest there are only very few studies (if any) on ion’ skin POSITIVE penetration “per se” -(REMEMBER MAG OIL IS AN ION)- BUT in contrast, there are many studies that show ions normally don’t penetrate skin well by themselves.

So unless this mag oil has a carrier (DMSO, ethanol, PPG, single layer liposomes, etc) I think it’s absorption rate through skin must be erratic and maybe very mild..

Now, I’ve theorized it could work on the scalp for the particularity that the scalp has 100K or so hair follicles, so as you may or may not know, a follicle is an “invagination” of the complete skin stratum, i.e. corneum through germinative inclusing papilar dermis. This means that the magnesium chloride ions SHOULD be able to enter through the small follicle openings, travelling caudally through the hair shaft and arrive to the follicle down the shaft UNTIL certain point where is hystologically harder for it do go further down the road…

So then how does Mag Oil gets to the perifolllicular fibrosis/calcium deposits to free our hair follicles?

In order to illustrate my point a bit, take this diagram I made modifying a shamelessly stolen histology pic from google images:

hairfollicle100xlabeled.jpg

Okay, so let me explain this, it’s a pretty easy deployment:

Color Key:
1)Red Arrows: Penetration route by diffusion through intact skin
2)Green Arrows: Penetration route by gravitational caudal mass pull / capillary diffusion through hair’s follicle space
3)Yellow Arrows: Perifollicular fibrosis area/Ca+ deposits

There are only two (2) topical routes which can be followed by MgCl2(H2O)x that I can think of, and those are depicted in red arrows, and green arrows, another route is by enteral/intravenous administration and thus by direct vascular irrigation (I never used I.V except with other oligoelements like in total parenteral nutrition for malnourished ICU patients and Oral would cause a mild laxative effect that is dose dependent.

So for the topical application we have only 2 ways I can think off:

1) Red Arrows: Penetration route by diffusion through intact skin Through skin stratum, down the dermis until it reaches the follicle’s perifollicular fibrosis area. As Mg Chloride is an Ion, this route SHOULD (according to medical literature) be very erratic and limited, unless probably you were to take whole body baths -Read on:

This is the only study I could actually found so far, it uses another magnesium Ion, magnesium sulfate or Epsom salts.

http://www.epsomsaltcouncil.org/articles/Report_on_Absorption_of_magnesium_sulfate.pdf

Illustrating excerpts for the lazy:
They used 19 healthy, young volunteers, they measured their blood mag levels, before and after exposure to the epsom salts. The volunteers took whole body baths and stayed in the bath for 12 minutes every day for 7 days. They added varying amounts of magnesium sulfate (Epsom salts) to the bath before entry and ensured that the salts were completely in solution.

Blood/Urine Samples Blood samples were taken before the first bath, at 2h after the first bath and at 2h after the 7th consecutive bath. Urine samples were collected before the first bath and then 2h after the first bath and at all subsequent baths . Urine samples were also taken 24h after the last bath.

Results:
Of 19 subjects, all except 3 showed a rise in magnesium concentrations in plasma, though this was small in some cases. The values before the first bath were, mean 104.68 ± 20.76 ppm/ml; after the first bath the mean was 114.08 ± 25.83
ppm/ml. Continuation of bathing for 7 days in all except 2 individuals gave a rise to a mean of 140.98 ± 17.00ppm/ml.

Conclusions: Prolonged soaking in Epsom salts therefore increases blood magnesium concentrations. It also increased plasma leves of sulfate

My own conclusions from this study:

1) Prolonged soaking in Mag “Oil” WILL elevate your magnesium blood levels and reach the perifollicular fibrosis/calcified area.

2)Magnesium “oil” (CHLORIDE) COULD increase blood chloride levels, like Magnesium SULFATE increased blood sulfate levels.

3) You can safely theorize you ARE NOT getting almost any absorption via the transcutaneous route by rubbing some mag oil on your scalp or putting some in your armpits vi the transcutaneous route.
-HOW COULD WE PROVE THIS? Go to a lab, and have them test your urine for Mg+. Then use the Mag “Oil” by rubbing on scalp and armpits say for a week, then have your urine tested for Mg+ again and compare the two. It shouldn’t be expensive or hard to do, would love to see who has tried this.

4) To get the Mag “Oil” into your scalp you would have to nude bath in literally gallons of the stuff every day, for 12 minutes,  for 7 days straigth. That costs 2.6 millions for a week! LOL

2)Green Arrows: Penetration route by gravitational caudal mass pull / capillary diffusion through hair’s follicle space

Many people are supposedly getting great results from it’s use, there are even books out there on “magnesium miracle” and “cure”.

I thought there MUST be more absorption through the follicle’s opening than through transdermal route, so this is my reasoning:

As you can see, the green arrow travels inside the hair follicle, but there’s no way it could out of that “tunnel” to reach the YELLOW ARROWS! So it MUST use osmosis to reach there once it reaches the bottom of the hair follicle down to the papila where it cannot go down any further.

So if you remember, in a selectively semi permeable membrane containing distilled water on one side (zero solutes) and NaCl (table salt) on the other, the movement of water will go from the “0 solute” side to the more concentrated side by a osmolite gradient (NaCl side) diluting it until the equilibrium is reached on both sides and both side solutions have equal osmolarity.

So we have human tissues on one side and Mag “Oil” on the other.

So let’s see what would happen here:

-Normal human tissues osmolarity range is 280 to 310 mOsmol/L and it is VERY narrowly regulated.

- Suppose you drop 1mL of Mag Oil on your scalp (forget about the transdermal route for now) and 100% of it goes down the hair follicle (remember green arrows) space route, by means of gravitational mass pull and capillarity principle down the hair shaft itself. But it reaches down up to a certain point, now HOW DOES IT GET OUT OF THE HAIR SHAFT TO REACH THE YELLOW ARROWS AREA?

Maybe by osmolarity….

So let’s calculate the osmolarity of 1ml of Mag Oil to see if this would travel outside the hair “tunnel” by osmolarity pull through the tissues until it reaches the YELLOW ARROWS.

By definition the osmolarity of a simple solution is equal to the molarity (number of moles of solute dissolved in one liter of solution) times the number of particles per molecule.  It is simply a count of the number of dissolved particles. Therefore a 300 millimolar solution of glucose, a 300 millimolar solution of urea, and a 150 millimolar solution of NaCl (Two particles: Na AND Cl) each have the same osmolarity.

So first let’s calculate MOLARITY:
According to “Ancient Minerals Mag Oil” -This is the original and most popular- “there’s approximately 560mg elemental magnesium per tsp”

1 US teaspoon = 4.92892159 milliliters so that is 0.56g in 4.9ml, so in 100ml we should have 11.428 grams or 11.42%, and in one Liter we have 114.28 grams.

Molar mass for MgCl2 is : 95.211 g/mol (anhydrous - dry salt) and 203.31 g/mol (hexahydrate - the most commonly used form - water solution)

1M (one molar) solution is by definition 1 mol of a solute in 1L of solvent.
In this case 1 mol of MgCl2 (203g) in 1 Liter of distilled water. We said we had 112g in 1L in the “Ancient Minerals Mag Oil” so that would make a 0.562 Mol/L = 562mMol/L.

Now for the OSMOLARITY (remember by definition the osmolarity of a simple solution is equal to the molarity (number of moles of solute dissolved in one liter of solution) times the number of particles per molecule.):

Chemically, in nature (take Sea water for example) the formation of MgCl involves [1Mg2+] + 1[Cl-] + 1[Cl-] = Mg+Cl2-

So when you take the sea salt water from the sea or from brine, and it dries up, you have the salt magnesium chloride, but put it again in water and you will have three particles: ONE Na+ ion and 2 Cl- ions. In Sea water, Magnesium Chloride exists as Mg+ cations and chloride ions (anions) Cl-.

So again, MgCl2 will dissolve in water & produce ONE Na+ ion and 2 Cl- ions, thus 3 particles, times 562mMol/L * (3) Species = 1686 mOsm/L.

So the osmolarity of such 1ml of Mag Oil (providing it contains distilled water and ONLY MgCl2 in said concentration) is: 1653 mOsm/0.001L (1mL) = 1.65x106 mOsm/mL

So let’s say that 1ml of Mag Oil interacts with one mL of the plasma that is bathing every cell of tissue outside the hair follicle, we said plasma has a 280-310 mOsm/L, to simplify let’s fix it at 300mOsm/L so in 1mL we have: 3x105 mOsm/L

What does this mean?

One mL Human Tissue Plasma   Vs.  One mL Mag Oil
      0.3 million osm                 1.68 million osm
                          (560% more osmotic pull than plasma)

Osmotically the plasma will flow from tissues unto the mag oil until they both have the same quantity of mOsm So Mag Oil will NOT work this way either.

———-Now lets say you buy Rite Aid’s Epsom Salts -64 oz (1.8 kg) for $6.99 USD.
http://www.amazon.com/Rite-Aid-Epsom-Salt-1-8/dp/B00008J2XP/ref=pd_sbs_hpc_4

The ingredients say its 100% Natural Mineral, Magnesium Sulfate U.S.P.
And their recommended use is 2 cups of salts in one gallon of water.

So say you make it according to rite Aid’s instructions, you take 2 cups and mix in one gallon distilled water.

Let’s quickly calculate the osmolarity:

1 cup [US] = 0.237 liter. = 237 cm3
MgSO4 anhydrous (Dry Salt) density is 2.66 g/cm3
One US gallon = 3.78541178 liters.
MgSO4+ Molar mass: 120.366 g/mol (anhydrous), 246.47 g/mol (heptahydrate - in water)

2 Cups of dry Epsom Salts:  2.66g/cm3 times 237cm3 (1 cup) = 630g, times 2 (2 cups) = 1260grams.
solved in 1 gallon equals 1260 g/3.78 L, so 1L has 333g.

1M solution has 246g/L, so this is a 1.35 Moles = 1350 mMoles.

Now for the osmolarity, we have 2 species, as MgSO4 in water dissociates into Mg and SO4 (sulfate).
So the osmolarity is 2*1350= 2700mOsm/L

Say we took (same as for mag oil) One (1) mL of this prepared solution, we would have:
2.7x106 mOsm/mL

What does this mean?

One mL Human Tissue Plasma   Vs.  One mL Rite Aid dissolve Epsom Salts as per suggested use
      0.3 million osm                                     2.7 million osm
                                            (900% more osmotic pull than plasma)

Osmotically the plasma will flow from tissues unto the Epsom Salts solutions until they both have the same quantity of mOsm So Epsom Salts solution will NOT work this way either.

BUT is WAY cheaper!

So we have 64oz of “Ancient Minerals Magnesium Oil”  selling $165.00 USD, that’s
1 US fluid ounce = 29.5735296 milliliters * 64 = 1892mL, so 1 buck will buy you 11.46 mL of a
11.42% solution, that is 1.30 g / $1 USD.
———————

And we have the Rite Aid 64oz - 1.8kg dry salts for $6.99 USD.
If you reconstitute it according to suggested use, 2 cups in one gallon, you should have
1260 grams (You would use up 70% of the whole provided product in ONE serving) BUT you would
make 1260g /3780 ml. If we were to ALSO use the remaining 30% left over in the rite Aid’s Epsom Salts cardboard box, then 1260g (2 cups)/3780ml (1 gallon) = 0.33 suggested solution rate.
* We had a total of 1800g - 1260g we already used = 540g. So for our remaining 540g/0.33 solution rate we should add 1636mL and we would have again, a 1636 mL of a 33% solution containing 540g.

So in total a Rite Aid 64oz - 1.8kg dry epsom salts product dissolved as suggested by manufacturer will make you 5416 mL of a 33% Epsom Salt solution. so 1 buck will buy you 774mL of a
33% solution, that is 255 g / $1 USD.

So this is 1961% more “bang for the buck” or 196 times more product for $1 USD.

-Lastly, say you were to equalize both solutions, so you wanted the Rite Aid 33% solution to be equal in “potency” to the 11.42% Ancient Minerals solution. So 33%/11.42% = 2.88%. So multiply the 196 times 2.88 = 564.

So in common language, a 11.42% solution of “64oz - 1.8kg Rite Aid Epsom Salts” selling for $6.99 USD will give you 5640% more “bang for the buck” or 564 more product for $1 USD, than a 11.42% solution of “64oz Ancient Minerals Magnesium Oil” selling for $165.00 USD.

The equivalent cost of this Rite Aid Solution using the cost of the Ancient Minerals Mag Oil would be a whoping $93 000 USD!

So if neither of them gets absorved through skin, or through hair follicles opening via gravitational caudal difusion and/or osmolarity pull, then why use the one that is 564 times as expensive?

BOTH will convert to Mg + SO4 and Mg + Cl + Cl when used in the 11.42% or 33% solution!

So my overall conclusions:

Unless you literally nude bathe in a bath tub filled with Mag “Oil” or Epsom salts, for 12 minutes every
day for 7 days, you won’t get your Mg blood levels up noticeably.

A standard bathtub is approximately 54” long by 24” wide by 8” deep to the bottom of the overflow. Ignoring the curved corners, that’s about 10,368 cubic inches or 44.9 gallons. Ajust the calculation taking into account that the outside corners are rounded on a 6” radius. Subtract 12x12x8 (1152) and add 3.14*6^2*8 (905). I get 10,121 cu in for 43.8 gallons=165L
Adjusting for your weight, say you weight 70kg, (forget Archimedes law for now! *LOL*- I’m too tired now) You would need 95 L of Epsom Salts solution to completely soak you on the solution, say I am exagerating, take 50% of that
47L, thats 10 gallons, so for the Rite Aid you would need 10x$6.99 USD = $699 USD per day/week,
roughly $4900 USD. and for the “Ancient Minerals Mag Oil” you would need $2,646 000 USD *LOL*

So what is the solution?
I could be wrong, maybe Magnesium Chloride (Mag Oil) or Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salts) Do absorb better through skin and through follicles, so if there’s a possiblity, then why use the 540x more expensive mag oil when you can use Epsom Salts as they BOTH dissolve into Mg ion + “X” other ion?

1) Because Mag Oil is free from heavy metals.
Alternative: Use edible, food grade 100% pure anhydrous magnesium sulfate USP.

2) Because of the trace minerals and lots of olligoelements that Mag Oil has?
Answer = buy a $3 dollars bag of organic celtic salt at Walmart and add the 80+ olligoelements they provide!

3) How do I dilute my own?
-Pretty easy, buy a cheap digital or mechanical scale and weight 11 g of the anhydrous Epsom salts , put them in 90ml of distilled water (Walgreen’s) and add a 1g of Walmart organic celtic salt, shake well, add another 10ml of distilled water to bring the total to 100mL. Adjust to any quantity you need.

-You could apply said solution with a $1 USD glass dropper (a plastic one would leech ions probably) on your scalp or take it orally by applying sparingly to your daily intake water.

-I.V Route: Forget it out of ICU units on malnourished patients!

4) Oral Route:

You WILL get good levels of mag in your blood (and it WILL REACH your perifollicular fibrosis/calcified area in about 1-2 hours) by using it in your drinking water (remember mild laxative effect may follow in 1-6 hours).

So unless there are meta-analyzed multi-centered, peer reviewed case control clinical trials that clearly show with a level A evidence levels that Mag “Oil” gets abrosved through skin better than dissolve epsom salts, I would suggest you used edible epsom salts (USP, food grade), it’s up to you,
results will be identical.

-SO I DON’T SEE ANY LOGICAL REASON TO KEEP USING MAG “OIL” INSTEAD OF DISSOLVED EPSOM SALTS EXCEPT FOR BLIND FAITH/OTHER UNDISCLOSED REASONS

*If you have those reasons PLEASE ELABORATE!

5)Other things to try:
-Derma roller: It Would micro perforate stratum corneum making more “tunnels” for the solution to go down into.

-Bentonite Clay: instead of Mag “Oil” or Epsom Salts, as this one REALLY PULLS CALCIUM OUT OF SKIN!!  -Now I won’ dissertate on that one for now- LOL but take my word, bentonite clay DOES work at pulling stuff out of skin -forget buzz words like “french green montmorellonite” that’s marketing hype, just use regular bentonite clay -Montmorellnonite came from Montmorellon France, and Bentonite came from Fort Benton Wyoming, US, they are THE SAME mineral- Use cosmetic grade, 325 mesh -about 40 microns- USP) as we use on burnt patients infected wounds to dry up all the exudates.

Iontophoresis - Electrical current- IF Ions DID penetrate skin easily and significatively, there wouldn’t be a need for Iontophoretic machines! *LOL* So we could experiment with electrical currents -Think Electrothrichogenesis- Alot to read and experiment here.

What if I still want to use expensive Mag “Oil” despite everything I read here?

Well some things it COULD do is :
-Relieve inflammation topically by reducing oedema in tissues (Example, it is extensively used as Epsom Salts for sore feet) The mechanism is osmolar pull, see above for full explanation.

-Soothe and calm your nerves. I have ssen this ONLY in full body prolonged baths, I have not a clue why this works as a anti stress treatment.

-Things that could up the absorption rate:
*Exercise - through more blood flow to scalp
*Sauna baths - through pore dilatation
*You could mix it in your regular Minox solutiion, as Ethanol and PPG will co-solve MgCl2 and it WILL go into your scalp.
*You could mix it in with Super Zix topicals as Ethanol will co-solve MgCl2 and it WILL go into your scalp.

*You could use USP edible food grade pure anhydrous Epsom Salts - MgSO4 instead of MgCl2 (for above stated resons) and mix it into Minox or Super Zix, or even plain ole 70% rubbing alcohol from your local drugstore if you dont like to use any topical , though I would rather use 100% absolute undenatured ethanol USP. First you would mix the anhydrous Epsom salt with distilled water and then add the ethanol until you reach the concentration you wish -bot liquids are polar so they mix perfectly-

- MAG OIL AND LASERING - MESSIAH - REFRACTION INDICES:
-Mag “Oil” (AND EPSOM SALTS TOO) leave a whiteish “dandruff” on your scalp/skin (This is actually Magnesium Ion physically reflecting all light spectrum -another proof water topical solution of this WILL NOT absorb well!) so this could in fact act as a mirror for laser photons. Unless it is in aqueous solution, that is, wet… OR in a dispersion with REAL OIL. Read on-

I have theorized it could work by providing a similar refractive index as skin thus focusing photons. We could mix different oils to up the refraction index and make it similar to skin’s stratum corneum, checkind the RI with a refractometer. I remember in medical school when we had histology class we would use immersion oil when using really high magnification on the microscope,
I think this oil (or maybe just any oil) can have light dispersion effects that direct the coherent photons in a more “straight” vector magnitude, because the interface between air and the scalp’s corneum stratum can act exactly as the interface between the microscope’s crystal coverslip and air interface, thus with the refraction index of that interface, the photons can get kind of scattered from its original vector.

A REAL OIL here would act as the immersion oil in that it has a very high refraction index, that forms an interface between the photons and the epicutaneous corneum stratus, thus directing the photon vectors in a more “straight” line. Immersion oil has a very similar refraction index as the glass used in the coverslips of the microscope, so there arent as many refraction variations through the
passing of photons from glass to air and then to glass again thus distorting the image!

So in theory the ideal oil for our scalps would be one that has roughly equivalent refraction index as our scalp’s corneum stratus! (and that has the same properties as mag oil) So I think this ideal
oil doesn’t exist! though we could mix our own.

Look at this:

“Refractive indices of human skin tissues at eight wavelengths and
estimated dispersion relations between 300 and 1600 nm”

http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0031-9155/51/6/008

We could lookup for different “filler oils” to add to the mag oil to obtain a pretty close refractive index for human skin and 640nm photons, using a refractometer like this!

http://www.anton-paar.com/001/en/60/90?gclid=CPzTi4-iqqACFRUjawod4QcrUg

I dont have one as they’re pretty darn expensive, but at the hospital I work at (a pretty big level I trauma center) they have a pretty decent lab, I think I could go and sample alot of oil mixes.

Also apparently hydrated skin has a lower refractive index than dry skin, so if you use the messiah on a damp hair, the refractive index changes from the water dispersed inside the skin.

Look at this other article: “Evaluation of the epidermal refractive index measured by optical
coherence tomography.”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16626385

From what I understand, apparently DRY human skin refractive index is
1.387+/-0.013 and WET is 1.391+/-0.023, so they are pretty close.

I found magnesium “Oil”‘s refractive index, it’s 1.569 (as an hexahydrate (“Oil” form) -for that matter we could use Epsom salts solution too-.

So it is NOT that different! So in fact it MAY act as a mild “anti-dispersion” medium on human skin between the diode’s plastic-or glass? covering/casing (the one that gives the MCD (micro candelas luminosity rating -that doesnt do a thing for biological effects-) air, and scalp’s corneum stratus.

In order to make it exactly the same, we would have to use different molar concentrations of a high refractive index Oil (Emu oil comes to mind! as it has incredible beneficial properties) but would need to
use an emulsifier for the mag “Oil”‘s hexahydrate phase is lipophobic to the Emu Oil’s oleic acid, We could use Polisorbate 60/80 /Another benefit) to mix the two phases, then I would test it in “real life” by
testing the different emulsions in the hospital lab’s spectrometer until we arrive at one with the same RI as damp skin. If it doesn’t dissolve well then we would have to use lipid bilayer liposomes, complicating things a bit! SO WHY NOT LEAVE OUT COMPLETELY MAGNESIUM “OIL” FROM THIS EQUATION AND USE ANY OTHER BENEFICIAL OIL COMBINATION/MIXES TO REACH A REFRACTION INDEX FOR 640NM PHOTONS THAT IS SIMILAR TO THE SKIN’S OWN?

*REAL OILS AS ALTERNATIVES/FILLERS FOR MAG “OIL” (OR FOR MIXING WITH MAG OIL FOR TESTING PURPOSES FOR “TOPICAL MAG OIL CULT FOLLOWERS”):
1) Emu oil (greatest of them all), followed closely by 2) Sea buckthorn Oil and in 3) third place, very close too, Tea Tree Oil. Fourth place woul be Neem oil.

There’s alot here to argument/brain storm with.

Comments are welcome, please mastermind here with me.

Thank you for reading and sorry for the really long post.
@OMG please feel free and DO edit my post to make it more readable/eye candy.

Best Regards,
Dr. Marcelo-Oswaldo, M.D.

 

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March 15, 2010, 05:39 AM

WOW!  That’s a great post, and I must say that I only took in about half of it -I’ll have to come back later for the rest!  Those are some interesting points that no one has raised before.

What’s funny is I’ve actually been thinking that the mag oil isn’t absorbing very well on my scalp (no real evidence other than a feeling), and it’d probably be best taken internally.  Do you have any thoughts on liposomal encapsulation of magnesium??  I’ve thought that if we combined it with k2 and D3 and liposomally encapsulated the whole thing, then we might have a great tool for anti-calcification, and one that actually penetrates.

Also, what’s funny is I never considered that maybe a little bit of the “MAGIC X” pitch is going on here.  I.E.:  The diodes in this laser device are “magic diodes” and no one else has them, or my type of clay is “magic clay” and it has better properties than any competitor’s product.  You know, basically saying that my product is better for some made up reason that just simply is not true!

I’ll have to look into the epsom salt part, too!  Man… that stuff is dirt cheap.

-O.M.G.


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March 15, 2010, 07:24 AM

Marcelo…Great post….A1

 

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March 15, 2010, 08:16 AM

FYI…  I’m mixing a couple of batches of clay for my upcomming video, and I decided to use mag oil in it.  Basically, I’ve found that I HAVE TO add some oil to the mix because it’s too drying without it.  The fact that it’s not a real “oil” means that it does mix with the water better, and what I’m hoping is that the clay will help with the penetration of the magnesuim.  It may or may not, I don’t know, and that would just be an added benefit if it did.  I use clay for the REAL REASON they work -remove excess sebum and oil from the scalp, pores, and follicles- and the oils are just to keep the hair from overly drying out.

I’m not sure if the mag oil will work for “hair lube” or not, though.  I may still have to add some tea tree or emu.

-O.M.G.


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March 15, 2010, 12:41 PM

Epsom salts “are very alkaline and can adversly change the PH balance of the skin” leading to fungal issues after prolonged use.

 

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March 15, 2010, 12:56 PM

jdp710 - March 15, 2010, 12:41 PM

Epsom salts “are very alkaline and can adversly change the PH balance of the skin” leading to fungal issues after prolonged use.

Could be, they are alkaline, just ad a tiny bit of cheap Walmart’s Organic Celtic Salts (They contain alot of Cl- ions -as well as a ton other olligoelements/trace minerals)  and you will balance pH EXACTLY the same as mag “Oil”. I can workup the exact steps to obtain the exact same pH if people want to.

@OMG: No, mag “oil” or epsom’s won’t lubricate hair, you will be much better served using Neem oil, Sea buckthorn oil, tea tree oil, or a cheaper on: jojoba or avocado oil.

@OMG: Also, 1-25 dihydroxi vitamin D3 and K2 are LIPOSOLUBLE, we can’t put them in regular liposomes, but in double lipid layer ones, this is more hard to do and we need more equipment, but it can be done. The initial inversion would be around $2000 USD for equipment, lab supplies.

THOUGH THE MAGNESIUM SALT ALONE CAN BE EASILY ENCAPSULATED IN LIPOSOMES!!
Imagine you use epsom salts, dissolve them in water and then encasulate in soy lecithin liposomes,
would be bad ass! I will post full plans someday soon, I’m just too lazy now LOL

Forget the D3 and K2 encapsulated, better take those orally.

Please keep posting reasons why one shouldn’t use Epsom salts instead of mag “oil”.
Remember, its the same Magnesium ION! only the one one in mag “oil” is 546 as expensive as the other. Nature doesn’t know the difference though… your scalp won’t either, but your wallet will
wink

 

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March 15, 2010, 12:59 PM

Marcelo, the reason I’m using it in this experiment is because it *does* really grease up my hair.  Again, I’m just experimenting with it and I don’t know if it’s going to work as well as I need it to, but based on what it ordinarily does to my hair, it should.  I’ll be able to tell after one use…


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March 15, 2010, 01:03 PM

OverMachoGrande - March 15, 2010, 12:59 PM

Marcelo, the reason I’m using it in this experiment is because it *does* really grease up my hair.  Again, I’m just experimenting with it and I don’t know if it’s going to work as well as I need it to, but based on what it ordinarily does to my hair, it should.  I’ll be able to tell after one use…

Yes OMG, do it, but use epsom’s instead. the “grease” feeling is from the Magnesium, not because the mag “oil” has actually some real oil in it… Even better, use a real lipid , as I said two post above this.

 

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March 15, 2010, 02:13 PM

From the book “magnesium for life”

According to Daniel Reid, author of The Tao of Detox, magnesium sulfate,
commonly known as Epsom salts, is rapidly excreted through the kidneys and
therefore difficult to assimilate. This would explain in part why the effects from
Epsom salt baths do not last long and why you need more magnesium sulfate in
a bath than magnesium chloride to get similar results. Magnesium chloride is
easily assimilated and metabolized in the human body.240
Epsom salts are used
by parents of children with autism because of the sulfate, which they are
sometimes deficient in; sulfate is also crucial to the body and is wasted in the
urine of autistic children.


If cost is a concern regarding magnesium chloride, you can make your own dirt cheap with magnesium flakes such as this http://www.swansonsvitamins.com/SWU495/ItemDetail?n=0  Grab a bottle, fill it with water and add flakes until no longer dissolves.  Alternatively, can use Nigari flakes. 

FWIW, here’s a test

Transdermal absorption through the skin using 16 individuals with low intracellular magnesium levels


Dr Norman Shealy States “Our purpose was to research whether or not magnesium was absorbed through the skin. Exclusion factors included anyone taking oral or IV magnesium during the last 6 weeks and smokers. Individuals sprayed a solution of 50% Magic Oil [Magnesium Oil] over the entire body once daily for a month and did a 20 minute foot soak in Magic Oil once daily for a month. Subjects had a baseline Intracellular Magnesium Test documenting their deficiency and another post-Intracellular Magnesium Test after 1 month of daily soaks.
The results were impressive. Twelve of sixteen patients, 75%, had significant improvements in intracellular magnesium levels after only four weeks of foot soaking and skin spray.”

 

10170411.jpg

hope this helps

 

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March 15, 2010, 02:16 PM

By the way, thanks for the awesome info Marcelo.

 

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March 15, 2010, 02:36 PM

Hi,
you are welcome.

The flakes method to do magneisum chloride is pretty good actually.

Daniel Reid quote:
This pure liquid form of magnesium chloride is the quickest and most convenient way to transmit magnesium into the cells and tissues through the skin.

He may have a commercial interest in som brand of mag “Oil” I don’t know what specific brand.

He clearly said that transdermal application :
Is the quickest and most convenient way to transmit magnesium into the cells and tissues through the skin

When the study you just cited clearly said subjects took FOOT BATHS FOR 20 MINUTES - forget they spayed the “magi 50% mag oil” in their skins, I would like to see they did the same with ONLY the mag oil spray and without the 20 min foot baths!

Exactly as the study I cited where subjects took WHOLE BODY BATHS FOR 12 MINUTES

And yet Daniel Reid says you can sprit a few ml of mag oil into your armpits and it
Is the quickest and most convenient way to transmit magnesium into the cells and tissues through the skin ? Why would this one absorb and every other in nature dont?

I don’t understand that.

Look at this study from Elsevier (science direct):
Advanced Drug Delivery Reviews

Transdermal ion migration

This chapter will focus on the influence of ion composition on the transdermal delivery of drug species through mammalian skin, due to an applied electric field. The pH of the drug-containing medium is shown to affect drug transport by altering the fraction of charged drug and the permselectivity of skin. The competitive transport of ions having the same charge as the drug ion (co-ions) and those having a charge opposite that of the drug ion (counter-ions), is discussed in detail. A model is derived to predict drug ion flux through a homogeneous non-ionic membrane at constant current, in the presence of one type of co-ion and counter-ion. Model values are compared to experimental data for ion migration through a synthetic aqueous membrane and through excised porcine skin. This comparison suggests that ion transport through pig skin occurs primarily along an aqueous pathway. In addition, a comparison of in vitro and in vivo data for several drug ions as well as comparison of in vivo results for transdermal sodium influx and efflux, suggests that the apparent sodium chloride concentration of the viable epidermis is hypotonic, having a value of about 0.09 M.

So why would they bother if any ion could penetrate skin easily without the nedd for at least 12 minute soakings?

I think it is PRETTY CLEAR now, that Magnesium ion WILL absorb through skin with daily soakins for at least 12 or 20 minutes.

I dont know If anyone would like to submerge their scalps in mag oil… becasue just getting them dripping wet with it wont work either.

I will keep looking.

 

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March 15, 2010, 02:46 PM

Hi Marcelo,

Regarding this quote

“And yet Daniel Reid says you can sprit a few ml of mag oil into your armpits and it
Is the quickest and most convenient way to transmit magnesium into the cells and tissues through the skin ? Why would this one absorb and every other in nature dont?”

I believe the reason why is due to the lymphatic system.  At least that’s how it’s been mentioned before. 

Regarding submerging the scalp in magnesium chloride for long periods ... you can put the magnesium chloride on your scalp and then wear a shower cap to prevent it from drying.  You can also wear a hat over the shower cap to prevent your wife/girlfriend from looking at you odd as well, lol.  In my experieince, I can tell that this works better than just applying and letting the magnesium chloride dry. 

hope this helps

 

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March 15, 2010, 02:59 PM

jdp710 - March 15, 2010, 02:46 PM

Hi Marcelo,

Regarding this quote

“And yet Daniel Reid says you can sprit a few ml of mag oil into your armpits and it
Is the quickest and most convenient way to transmit magnesium into the cells and tissues through the skin ? Why would this one absorb and every other in nature dont?”

I believe the reason why is due to the lymphatic system.  At least that’s how it’s been mentioned before. 

Regarding submerging the scalp in magnesium chloride for long periods ... you can put the magnesium chloride on your scalp and then wear a shower cap to prevent it from drying.  You can also wear a hat over the shower cap to prevent your wife/girlfriend from looking at you odd as well, lol.  In my experieince, I can tell that this works better than just applying and letting the magnesium chloride dry. 

hope this helps

Okay, thanks for bringing more elements to the equation, I can and will explain everything in detail, when I get some time, but believe me, if this was that easy as using the lymphatic system through armpits, we wouldn’t be bothering with developing ion delivery systems since the 1980’s to date.

Also, a red flag is you won’t find ANY reasearch AT ALL on lymphatic system absorption of magnesium ions, except for the pseudoscience that is repeatedly copy-pasted and quoted from one mag oil selling website to another and from “mag oil miracle” kind books.

I will provide more information soon. I wrote all of this because I don’t want you to spend money innecesarily! I don’t sell Epsom salts by the way *LOL* Although I could make my own MAGIC salts! LOL

Thanks!

EDIT: I almost forgot, the shower cap idea is great! I would add some essential oil to it to have it deeply penetrate the hair shaft and scalp. Think Neem oil or sea buckthorn oil. F**** great oils if you ask me.

EDIT 2: Out of the top of my head I COULDN’T remember ANY stuidy on percutaneous drug absorption through armpits’ lymphatic system, it would be interesting to bind Mg iuons to Tc99 and use a scintigraphy probe to see if it actually goes inside your body.

EDIT 3: Just found another article on cutaneous mag use:
I will translate what is important:
This is from DR. J. R. FERNANDEZ CANEPA,
an Honduras doctor who has alot of experience in magneisum and uses Mag extesively orally, IV AND ALSO topically:

“El Sulfato de Magnesio en sus diversas vías de
Absorción y sus Aplicaciones en la Clínica”

“Magnesium Sulfate and it’s diverse absorption routes and clinical applications”

I.—Aplicaciones cutáneas.
Hemos obtenido buenos resultados
y frecuentemente, muy
buenos, con las aplicaciones locales
de una solución saturada
de sulfato de magnesio embebido
en algodón y colocados a la
manera de fomentaciones en
distintas afecciones., constatándose
la disminución y a veces la
desaparición de la tumefacción
y del dolor (local).


I. Cutaneous Applications.
We have had good and frequently very good results with local application of a cotton rag soaked up (note: “embebida” means literally “dripping wet, engrossed with”) in a Magnesium Sulfate saturated solution, which is used as a poultice (“fomento” in this context means a moist medicinal compress or application.) for the treatment of diverse aflictions, and we have confirmed a decrease and sometimes a dissapearance of pain and swelling.

Su manera de aplicar es sencilla:
se prepara prácticamente
disolviendo medio o un kilo de
sulfato de magnesio en 1/2 o 1 litro
de agua caliente, según la
extensión del fomento y estando
a una temperatura soportable se
embebe planchuelas de algodón,
de ancho y largo apropiado a la
zona a tratar.

It’s application it’s easy: You prepare it by dissolving 0.5 or 1 kg of magnesium sulfate in 0.5 or 1 liter of hot (comfortable temperature that you can stand) water, and you soak a cotton rag in it, which size will be made according to the extension of the area to be treated

En el tronco sólo se aplicará
una zona más extensa del proceso
y en los miembros se lo colocará,
vendándose.
Embebido el algodón, se lo exprimirá
un tanto, hasta que no
gotee, pero sin ser él, muy intenso.
Se le dejará colocado 24
o 48 horas permanentemente.

When used on the trunk, we will only apply it in a more extensive area, and in lower/upper limbs we will place the poultice and then wrap them. Once the cotton ragged is soaked, we squeeze out the excess until no dripping occurs, an leave it on continuously for 24 or 48 hrs

So again, If it was as easy as spraying on you armpits, why bother with all of this? this is an empirical, real world backup for the notion that Mg ions don’t easily cross skin, no matter the anatomical area

 

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March 16, 2010, 11:38 AM

Marcelo - how many times a week do you think would be the most beneficial for applying bentonite clay ? Do you think one could go overboard with it ?
Thanks

 

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March 16, 2010, 03:39 PM

Socrates - March 16, 2010, 11:38 AM

Marcelo - how many times a week do you think would be the most beneficial for applying bentonite clay ? Do you think one could go overboard with it ?
Thanks

Hi,

I think the answer lies in how oily your particular scalp is…

I could see two applications here:
1) cleaning as a Pre-treat for Lasering
2) cleaning without using lasering afterwards

The effect is the same on both applications: The reason to use bentonite clay on the scalp would be to aid in the sebum/oil/grime extraction from it, to leave it squeaky clean.
When I started using it I applied it daily, I though -I think alot of us do!- my particular scalp was more oily than anyones’! *LOL*

So I used bentonite clay I bought really cheap like 4 dollars for a 20kg heavy bag! *LOL*
from a mining supplier (they are used in perforation muds to improve rheologic properties of dirt around the perforating metal drill to avoid it being overheat and broken - so order a 325 mesh, cosmetic grade) once every day,after 3 days straight of Clayin’ I got a bone dry scalp, which also was very itchy! why? because I removed practically ALL LIPIDS from its surface!

So can you go overboard? definitely!

You see, the reasons to “pre-treat” scalp before lasering or to use it outside a lasering scheme are fundamentally the same: To remove a lot of sebum, dead skin flakes, deposited dust, grime, an purportedly try to remove calcium from malnourished areas and have a very clean scalp without so many calcium deposits from your follicles.

The key statement here is:
YOU DONT WANT TO REMOVE ALL the sebum from your scalp, or you WILL suffer from excess drying, inflammation and itchynnes! becasue it won’t have any protection on it. Remember, SOME oil is necesary always!


Why I think EXCESS SEBUM causes hair loss:
1) Well, depending on you own blood lipid profile and your ratios of omega 6 to omega 3,
which comes from your diet, and from the diet of the animal’s you ate (free range grass fed vs commercial farmed corn fed) and that profile is also reflecteing on your skin and on your scalp’s fatty acids lipids, so if your blood omega 6’s are too high like 10-1 omega 3, then you will have a “pro-inflammatory” milieu, making your hair fall out.

Don’t believe this? Look at a Neem’s hair! That animal’s hair A WHOLE LOT OF HAIR! and it’s AS OILY AS IT COULD POSSIBLY BE!! and it doesn’t fall out, why? Neem’s hair oil contains mostly OLEIC acid (the one in sesame oil and avocado oil), an omega 9 which is antiinflammatory. Also, Neems don’t develop male neem pattern baldness *LOL*

2) The end result of inflammation sometimes is calcification when it becomes chronic enough. So excess sebum causes this also, by first promoting inflammation.

3) Excess sebum ALSO modifies the angle of the hair shaft to to scalp, and as this poor hair aflicted by MPB and miniaturization is already weak, the angle modification mkes it fall out easier. I REALLy think this happens only with your OWN scalp sebum, why? because it get’s mixed with dead hair scales and grime and forms a kind of “paste” so this traps hair and does the angle modification by sheer weight, thus making it fall out. THIS IS ALSO TRUE for buildup from cheap shampoos.

So how frequently and how much time should I use this? and how do I avoid removing ALL the sebum?

The variables are:
1) How many times a week do you use it?
2) How much time do you leave it on on every use?
3) What kind of

Your particular scalp’s oiliness will vary, so you will have to do what we call Trial and Error.
I wouldn’t repeat what I did, hat is using it daily! so instead use it 3 times a week for 20 minutes each and adjust from there varying the variables.

For me, every day usage was overkill, maybe for you or for someone with REALLY OILY scalp once daily will do the magic!? who knows! just be careful not to overdo it using the approach I suggested.

Also, I theorize (I must be honest and say I havent tried this yet) a post bentonite clay treatment would do wonders (FOR TREATING EXCESS SEBUM REMOVAL IF YOU OVERDID IT -or for overall scalp health-), like a mild beneficial oil, I will try this next time!

I would suggest EMU oil, sea buckthorn oil and tea tree oil, fourth place, neem oil. you can scent those with lemongrass, lavender or pine neetle oil.

A real cheap alternative would be jojoba oil and avocado oil.

I hope this will help you and everyone asking.

 

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March 16, 2010, 04:21 PM

Marcelo,

Could you expand on what animal is a neem? As far as I know, neem is a plant. And I know neem oil has great anti-parasitic and anti-bacteria and anti-fungal properties. Never heard it refered to as an animal but who knows what they call things in Central America!...LOL.

Thanks,
T

 

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March 16, 2010, 04:30 PM

UPDATE ON MAGNESIUM ABSORPTION ROUTES

I teach to a 3 groups of medical interns and to 4 groups of medical residents,
I assigned a take home task to reserach all they could on magnesium and ions transport across human or mammalian skin. I also did an exhaustive research on NCBI and pubmed, medline, ovid, sciencedirect, youtube *LOL* AND google search engine.

This is what we collectively found:

1) Routes of ionic permeability through mammalian skin

Russell O. Potts, Richard H. Guy,Michael L. Francoeur

Cygnus Therapeutic Systems, Redwood City, CA 94063, USA

Departments of Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical Chemistry, University of California-San Francisco, San Francisco, CA 94143, USA

Dermal Therapeutics Group, Pfizer, Inc., Central Research Division, Groton, CT 06340, USA
Available online 3 October 2002.

Abstract

The skin’s highly resistive nature to the transport of ions and neutral compounds is primarily due to the lipids of the stratum corneum. The skin also contains a number of appendageal structures such as hair follicles and sweat ducts which can serve as shunt pathways for ion transport. Evidence is presented to suggest that ion transport can occur via the extracellular lipid domains of the stratum corneum through interfacial defects present at sites of lipid phase separation. Moreover, a similar mechanism of transport has been hypothesized for other lipid membranes.


*I was actually right in my hypotethical theorizing on the GREEN ARROWS route! LOL though I forgot the sweat glands…


*Another reference Magnesium’s very poor / very limited absorption across human SKIN.

———————————————————————————————————————————————
2) The Influence of an Electric Field on Ion and Water Accessibility to Stratum Corneum Lipid Lamellae

Louk A. R. M. Pechtold1, 2, William Abraham1 and Russell O. Potts1   Contact Information
(1)  Cygnus, Inc., 400 Penobscot Drive, Redwood City, California, 94063
(2)  Leiden Amsterdam Center for Drug Research, Division of Pharmaceutical Technology, Gorlaeus Laboratories, Leiden, The Netherlands

Publicación Pharmaceutical Research
Publisher Springer Netherlands

Fascículo/ejemplar/número Volume 13, Number 8 / agosto de 1996

Abstract   Purpose. To study ion transport through stratum corneum (SC) lipid lamellae under passive and iontophoretic conditions.
Methods. Iodide ion transport was measured by fluorescence quenching. Since the process involves diffusion of an iodide ion to the fluorophore located within the SC lamellae, the accessibility of iodide ions was measured. Moreover, the use of anthroyloxy fatty acid probes, provided information as a function of depth within the lamellae.
Results. Fluorescence quenching by iodide ions increased with iontophoretic current density, suggesting increased ion accessibility within the SC lamellae. In addition, at constant current, quenching decreased as the fluorophore was located deeper within the lamellae. This gradient in ion accessibility suggests that more iodide is found near the head-group than near the core of the SC lipid lamellae. Results obtained in the absence of iodide also show increased water accessibility during iontophoresis.
Conclusions. These results show that in the presence of an applied electric field the SC lipid lamellae interior becomes more accessible to water and ions. These results imply that during iontophoresis, ion and water transport through human skin is associated, at least in part, with the SC lipid lamellae.


*If magnesium ions would cross readily and significatively the skin withouth the need for iontophoretic currents then why bother with all of this?

————————————————————————————————————————-
3) Identification and characterization of a novel mammalian Mg2+ transporter with channel-like properties.

Goytain A, Quamme GA.

Department of Medicine University of British Columbia Vancouver, BC, Canada. .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

BACKGROUND: Intracellular magnesium is abundant, highly regulated and plays an important role in biochemical functions. Despite the extensive evidence for unique mammalian Mg2+ transporters, few proteins have been biochemically identified to date that fulfill this role. We have shown that epithelial magnesium conservation is controlled, in part, by differential gene expression leading to regulation of Mg2+ transport. We used this knowledge to identify a novel gene that is regulated by magnesium. RESULTS: Oligonucleotide microarray analysis was used to identify a novel human gene that encodes a protein involved with Mg2+-evoked transport. We have designated this magnesium transporter (MagT1) protein. MagT1 is a novel protein with no amino acid sequence identity to other known transporters. The corresponding cDNA comprises an open reading frame of 1005 base pairs encoding a protein of 335 amino acids. It possesses five putative transmembrane (TM) regions with a cleavage site, a N-glycosylation site, and a number of phosphorylation sites. Based on Northern analysis of mouse tissues, a 2.4 kilobase transcript is present in many tissues. When expressed in Xenopus laevis oocytes, MagT1 mediates saturable Mg2+ uptake with a Michaelis constant of 0.23 mM. Transport of Mg2+ by MagT1 is rheogenic, voltage-dependent, does not display any time-dependent inactivation. Transport is very specific to Mg2+ as other divalent cations did not evoke currents. Large external concentrations of some cations inhibited Mg2+ transport (Ni2+, Zn2+, Mn2+) in MagT1-expressing oocytes. Ca2+and Fe2+ were without effect. Real-time reverse transcription polymerase chain reaction and Western blot analysis using a specific antibody demonstrated that MagT1 mRNA and protein is increased by about 2.1-fold and 32%, respectively, in kidney epithelial cells cultured in low magnesium media relative to normal media and in kidney cortex of mice maintained on low magnesium diets compared to those animals consuming normal diets. Accordingly, it is apparent that an increase in mRNA levels is translated into higher protein expression. CONCLUSION: These studies suggest that MagT1 may provide a selective and regulated pathway for Mg2+ transport in epithelial cells.

* These results show they found an active Magnesium transporter (one that actually uses energy up to move an ion through membranes, the problem here is, this was found in EPITHELIA of OOCYTE AND KIDNEY, not ALL epithelia are like skin’s epithelia, in fact skins’s epithelium’s unique characteristic is it’s stratified AND keratinized, thus has a corneum stratus, made up of keratin layer upon layer, keratin is has a tough substance which is part of what makes skin waterproof

So far nothing yet on why Mg oil will absorb through skin with suggestd application of some spritz in armpits and scalp.

I will keep looking and keep you posted.

 

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March 16, 2010, 04:35 PM

tonyb - March 16, 2010, 04:21 PM

Marcelo,

Could you expand on what animal is a neem? As far as I know, neem is a plant. And I know neem oil has great anti-parasitic and anti-bacteria and anti-fungal properties. Never heard it refered to as an animal but who knows what they call things in Central America!...LOL.

Thanks,
T

*LOL*
I mean to say Emu oil!  that one is F*** great!
Neem oil is indeed for parasitic infections! Also, try boiling the leaves of a peach tree as an infusion and use it for myasis from housefly larvae on diabetic wounds and you will be amazed.

Thanks for pointing out my error, I will fix the Neem oil reference to instead say “Emu”

 

 

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March 16, 2010, 05:09 PM

Hi Doc. Do you think a more realistic approach would simply be to add a low dose mag sulfate to something like the zix formula? That way the alkaline mag sulfate wouldn’t really change the PH of the entire solution to any great degree. Furthermore it would also be easier for people to remain compliant with the routine because it would be simple and less time consuming.

Also do you see any incompatibility issues with the zinc sulfate and B-6 already dissolved in the distilled water? Would adding mag sulfate cause a chemical change in these two substances?

 

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March 16, 2010, 06:12 PM

Zix Creator - March 16, 2010, 05:09 PM

Hi Doc. Do you think a more realistic approach would simply be to add a low dose mag sulfate to something like the zix formula? That way the alkaline mag sulfate wouldn’t really change the PH of the entire solution to any great degree. Furthermore it would also be easier for people to remain compliant with the routine because it would be simple and less time consuming.

Also do you see any incompatibility issues with the zinc sulfate and B-6 already dissolved in the distilled water? Would adding mag sulfate cause a chemical change in these two substances?

jdp710 - March 15, 2010, 12:41 PM

Epsom salts “are very alkaline and can adversly change the PH balance of the skin” leading to fungal issues after prolonged use.

I found in chemical elements database: hydrated magnesium sulfate (Epsom Salts in water) pH is:
6.0 (5.5 to 6.5). BTW Our own pH is 7.35-7.45. So 6.0 is definitely ACIDIC and not Alkaline as some mag “oil” sellers would like you to think.

Magnesium Chloride white flakes obtained from sea water: pH 8.5
Magnesium Chloride Food grade: pH 7.0

So Mag “Oil”‘s pH is 7.0-8.5. So actually the sellers are lying. Epsom’s have a more acid pH then mag “oil”.

On the question of chemical change by adding the MgSO4, I sincerrely DON’T know.
But to be really honest, there’s no way to know unless to use an X-ray cristallography and photon spectrometer to determine if there are new species-species reactions as crystals.

Then you would have to determine ionic strength and then use a potenciometer to thermodinamically determine each species entalpic / enthropic equilibrium and their stability constants and then buffer and balance the final solution. You could take this to a professional chemical commercial house and ask them to analyze and balance it for you.

OR

you could however theorize, that the equilibrium constants of each individual chemical species binds them together more strongly than to every other species that share the same solvent (water and alcohol) Though this is overly enthusiastic and only in theory, as physically-chemically ion-pairs’ stability constants are VERY WEAK, thus they VERY EASILY and COMPLETELY dissolve in water and other solvents. I would better recommend using the magnesium solution (be it mag oil or epsom’s is up to you) on a separate ocasion.

 

 

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# 20 ]

March 16, 2010, 06:34 PM

Yea sorry about the alkaline thing. I always forget the lower the PH the more acidic!

Perhaps this may be a case for liposomes. That way we could keep everything seperate.

“you could however theorize, that the equilibrium constants of each individual chemical species binds them together more strongly than to every other species that share the same solvent (water and alcohol) .”

You’ll have to forgive me. I don’t understand this. To me I have always thought in terms of keeping things that are soluble in a particular substance to a minimum. Zinc sulfate and b-6 are water soluble. Saw palmetto is glycerin soluble. Beta sitsterol is oil soluble. That way I figured it would prevent compatibility issues. My original formula was simply zinc sulfate and b-6 dissolve in distilled water….and it worked for people so i simply assumed these two together in water were OK. I also assumed the other substances were OK too because they were soluble in different mediums. Am I incorrect?

 

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# 21 ]

March 16, 2010, 06:36 PM

Amazing post, Marcello and kind of relieving because I’m seeing considerable shedding (my fourth week into lasering!) and thinning on my hairline where I expected thickening lol! and shedding all over in places I do not ever normally shed. Im also getting red pimples? or bumps around the hairline where the shedding and thinning is occurring. What’s funny is in the beginning of the first two weeks I did not see shedding of any sort when I was using Bentonite clay, since I ran out Ive simply been applying Mag oil to my scalp after a good clean scalp and have noticed the shedding increase in intensity. It’s probably too early to say for certain though since, the shedding might have started regardless of whether or not I applied clay since I was only 2 weeks or so in at the time. Although I’ve read, I do not know where exactly, probably from some one on this forum, perhaps Nid, that the pimples and early shedding are a good initial thing-really blows right now though! So right now I’m just using a non-sulfate based shampoo and ACV rinse along with mag oil before 15-20 minutes of lasering Mon,Wed,Fri. But I think Ill stop applying the Mag oil to my head and armpits because it really is one hell of a greasy chore.


I also take L-Taurine, Green tea extract, and zinc. Btw if anyone has had an experience with laser shedding please feel free to share, I’m staying positive despite the toll my little buddies are taking if it means I win the war in the end. =]


Also, I’m more than willing to drink Mag oil with some water because I’m pretty lazy. But out of that amazing post, Marcello, I didn’t really catch in Tspns orTblspns the amount needed with some water lol that would be really usefull.


Sure, shit happens...but so does good shit!

 

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# 22 ]

March 16, 2010, 06:41 PM

UPDATE - ANOTHER REFERENCE (THIS IS THE LAST I COULD FIND ON THIS TOPIC)

Transport of ionic species through skin

J. B. Phipps, R. V. Padmanabhan and G. A. Lattin

Medtronic, Inc., Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA

Received 6 September 1987;  revised 11 September 1987.  Available online 27 September 2002.

Abstract
The literature pertaining to the transdermal iontophoretic delivery of drugs spans over eighty years.

The general definition of iontophoresis is the introduction of ionic species into the body via an applied electric potential for therapeutic purposes.

In this review, the structure of the skin is described and evidence that ions migrate along shunt pathways, such as hair follicles and sweat glands, is cited.

Finally, experimental data comparing the efficiency of drug delivery through excised pig, rabbit, and human skin for ionic lithium, sodium, magnesium, calcium, potassium, salicylate, pyridostigmine, and propranolol are summarized.

The efficiency of drug delivery was found to decrease with increasing molecular weight and to be substantially lower for divalent cations i.e. MAGNESIUM is a divalent cation than for monovalent cations of similar molecular weight.


*First off, Why bother with iontophoresis, mag oil already penetrates skin easily and almost immediately, or so they say the mag oil experts, and mag oil sellers.
*Magnesium IS a divalent cation, so its absorption rate is EVEN WORSE then for other ions.
*Another reference to the “green arrows” route, though remember, this is limited to a certain point.
*So, if in 80 years + the years passed from 2002 to date, 88 years, every researcher in that field has been saying the ions DON’T cross intact human skin well or significatively why is it that THE ONLY reference FOR ITS GREAT AND IMMEDAITE ABSORPTION you will find is from “MAGNESIUM MIRACLE” and “MAGNESIUM CURE” type of books and from “MAGNESIUM OIL SELLERS” ?

That’s something to think about.

I think by now it is/should be very clear mag oil and epsom salts would wokr just as well, with prolonged soaking / wearing a bath cap. If you still think mag oil is better, then stop for a moment, and ask yourself why you think this? where are you basing your source of truth?

I had enough with this topic, I will make a final post on this later on today or tomorrow.

 

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# 23 ]

March 16, 2010, 06:59 PM

Well I did some good ol’ googling and found a step by step guide of what happens or is expected to happen during lasering month by month. It’s from the www.50lasers.com website, which probably isn’t the most reliable site but they are at least selling a decent product and not a shitty underpowered single diode Lasercomb. Anyway here’s the rundown if anyone is interested.


You’ll see some changes within the first few weeks. It can take 12 - 16 weeks to see full results. And it keeps getting better [INSERT LOL] with continued use. Here’s what to expect.
Month One

In the first month, you may begin to notice some shedding of fine hairs. Don’t be alarmed or worry [YEA RIGHT! WHAT IF IT WAS YOUR HAIR?], this just means the treatment is working.

Every hair follicle has a 4 stage cycle of growth and shedding that it naturally goes through while it is still active. The last of these stages is where the hair falls out. It is then soon followed by a new hair emerging from the follicle.

If you see more shedding than usual, be encouraged. It’s a good sign. This means that the laser treatment is stimulating the natural cycle of the follicles that were in the last stage. This will soon be followed by more and thicker hair.
Month two

You may still see some shedding, but by the middle of this month, this will probably be coming to an end.

By now you can start to see some emerging hairs coming out of the scalp.

This is around the time people start to get really excited. It’s usually quite a relief to see your own hair coming back in and know that you have a permanent, safe answer.
Month three

At this point you will see more hairs emerging from the scalp. Continue using the Super Grow Super 50 [OR THE LASER MESSIAH!]. The laser therapy is bringing back follicles that had started to fall into inactivity.
Month four

In the fourth month you will be seeing a substantial amount of hair regrowth [SHAMELESS LOL].
Months five and on

Continued use in the coming months will bring even fuller results.


Sure, shit happens...but so does good shit!

 

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# 24 ]

March 16, 2010, 07:55 PM

I made this diagram for all of you, to further illustrate a point of mine,
this is a “straw man” explanation of ion pairs species behaviour in aqueous solution.

magoil.jpg

As you can see, BOTH products Epsom and Mag “oil” gets dissolved after water (solvent) breaks their “molecular forces” -red spheres- liberating metal (Mg ion) and ligand (SO4 complex and Cl ion)

Magnesium Ions are EXACTLY THE SAME.

If this doesn’t convince you to buy 546 times cheaper epsom’s then I dont know what will!

 

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# 25 ]

March 16, 2010, 08:04 PM

marcelo - March 16, 2010, 07:55 PM

If this doesn’t convince you to buy 546 times cheaper epsom’s then I dont know what will!


But I already have a huge jug of Mag Oil! lol ...Do you know how much I should add to water to reap the benefits of decalcification marcello?


Sure, shit happens...but so does good shit!

 

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March 17, 2010, 11:24 AM

I’ve used a few products of magnesium oil, principally containing magnesium chloride, from sea water.

For some reason, not all of these products work the same. From my own experience, if there is an absence of heat sensation upon the vigorous rubbing of a tablespoon of magnesium oil, then the product probably doesn’t work, unless one’s magnesium pump is not in order.

Epsom salts should be avoided for diabetics, however magnesium chloride is safe.

Here is a study using magnesium chloride, in this case placed in bathing water.

Int J Dermatol. 2005 Feb;44(2):151-7.
Bathing in a magnesium-rich Dead Sea salt solution improves skin barrier function, enhances skin hydration, and reduces inflammation in atopic dry skin.

Proksch E, Nissen HP, Bremgartner M, Urquhart C.

Department of Dermatology, University of Kiel, Kiel, Germany. .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

Magnesium salts, the prevalent minerals in Dead Sea water, are known to exhibit favorable effects in inflammatory diseases. We examined the efficacy of bathing atopic subjects in a salt rich in magnesium chloride from deep layers of the Dead Sea (Mavena(R) Dermaline Mg(46) Dead Sea salt, Mavena AG, Belp, Switzerland). Volunteers with atopic dry skin submerged one forearm for 15 min in a bath solution containing 5% Dead Sea salt. The second arm was submerged in tap water as control. Before the study and at weeks 1-6, transepidermal water loss (TEWL), skin hydration, skin roughness, and skin redness were determined. We found one subgroup with a normal and one subgroup with an elevated TEWL before the study. Bathing in the Dead Sea salt solution significantly improved skin barrier function compared with the tap water-treated control forearm in the subgroup with elevated basal TEWL. Skin hydration was enhanced on the forearm treated with the Dead Sea salt in each group, which means the treatment moisturized the skin. Skin roughness and redness of the skin as a marker for inflammation were significantly reduced after bathing in the salt solution. This demonstrates that bathing in the salt solution was well tolerated, improved skin barrier function, enhanced stratum corneum hydration, and reduced skin roughness and inflammation. We suggest that the favorable effects of bathing in the Dead Sea salt solution are most likely related to the high magnesium content. Magnesium salts are known to bind water, influence epidermal proliferation and differentiation, and enhance permeability barrier repair.


_________________
http://www.immortalhair.org/mycurrentregimen.htm

Now available for consultation (hair and/or health)
http://www.immortalhair.org/consultation.htm

 

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# 27 ]

March 17, 2010, 11:27 AM

BaldbeGone - March 16, 2010, 08:04 PM

marcelo - March 16, 2010, 07:55 PM

If this doesn’t convince you to buy 546 times cheaper epsom’s then I dont know what will!


But I already have a huge jug of Mag Oil! lol ...Do you know how much I should add to water to reap the benefits of decalcification marcello?

Hey man, that is allright, I am not saying Mag Oil is evil, I am saying it is the same as epsom salts when it is in solution, and we use it in solution always!

As to the question of how much you need to add to water, I am afraid I don-t know the answer, I could only tell you how much to add to reach a wanted molar concentration and osmolarity, but I think nobody has a clear cut answer as to how concentrated should you use your magnesium solution to decalcificate your follicles. I can draw from my own empirical experience in diabetic feet patients, we would use a 30% solution of magnesium sulfate in plain faucet WARM water and soak the feet for 20 minutes at most, every day. That would keep inflmmation at bay and relieve symptoms as pain, swelling and soreness in general. When we used a 50% solution, if the patient’s had any tiny cuts or abrasion THIS WOULD STING AS HELL!  So I wouldn’t use any more than 30% concentration, and to make this you have to tell me which brand of mag oil you have and what specific type of product, as there are many products within each brand. Like the super pure, etc.


*How to mix epsom’s to have 1000mL (1 L) of a 30% solution.
A) Things to Buy:

1) If you are concerned about heavy metals contamination, buy food grade, USP edible anhydrous (DRY) epsom salts (MgSO4 = Magnesium Sulfate).
2) Buy a bag of cheap organic celtic salt at any convenience store
3) Buy a gallon of distilled water at any convenience store
4) Buy a cheap kitchen scale and mixing paraphernalia

B) Mixing process
1) Pour 900mL of distilled water in a clean jar
2) Weight 300g (GRAMS) of dry Epsom’s salts in the kitchen scale and add slowly to the water while stirring constantly until completely dissolved
3) Weigth 500mg (MILI-GRAMS) of Organic Celtic Salts and add slowly to the water while stirring constantly until completely dissolved
4) Add up 100mL of distilled water to complete the 1000mL

Don’t ask me to calculate the ionic strength of this solution as I dont have a potentiometer! *lol*

 

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# 28 ]

March 17, 2010, 11:43 AM

Immortal Hair - March 17, 2010, 11:24 AM

I’ve used a few products of magnesium oil, principally containing magnesium chloride, from sea water.

For some reason, not all of these products work the same. From my own experience, if there is an absence of heat sensation upon the vigorous rubbing of a tablespoon of magnesium oil, then the product probably doesn’t work, unless one’s magnesium pump is not in order.

Epsom salts should be avoided for diabetics, however magnesium chloride is safe.

Here is a study using magnesium chloride, in this case placed in bathing water.

Int J Dermatol. 2005 Feb;44(2):151-7.
Bathing in a magnesium-rich Dead Sea salt solution improves skin barrier function, enhances skin hydration, and reduces inflammation in atopic dry skin.

Proksch E, Nissen HP, Bremgartner M, Urquhart C.

Department of Dermatology, University of Kiel, Kiel, Germany. .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

Magnesium salts, the prevalent minerals in Dead Sea water, are known to exhibit favorable effects in inflammatory diseases. We examined the efficacy of bathing atopic subjects in a salt rich in magnesium chloride from deep layers of the Dead Sea (Mavena(R) Dermaline Mg(46) Dead Sea salt, Mavena AG, Belp, Switzerland). Volunteers with atopic dry skin submerged one forearm for 15 min in a bath solution containing 5% Dead Sea salt. The second arm was submerged in tap water as control. Before the study and at weeks 1-6, transepidermal water loss (TEWL), skin hydration, skin roughness, and skin redness were determined. We found one subgroup with a normal and one subgroup with an elevated TEWL before the study. Bathing in the Dead Sea salt solution significantly improved skin barrier function compared with the tap water-treated control forearm in the subgroup with elevated basal TEWL. Skin hydration was enhanced on the forearm treated with the Dead Sea salt in each group, which means the treatment moisturized the skin. Skin roughness and redness of the skin as a marker for inflammation were significantly reduced after bathing in the salt solution. This demonstrates that bathing in the salt solution was well tolerated, improved skin barrier function, enhanced stratum corneum hydration, and reduced skin roughness and inflammation. We suggest that the favorable effects of bathing in the Dead Sea salt solution are most likely related to the high magnesium content. Magnesium salts are known to bind water, influence epidermal proliferation and differentiation, and enhance permeability barrier repair.

Thanks for your input,
“Epsom’s salt shouldnt be used in diabetics, however cmag chloride is safe”  So Thats only partially true, I think you are refering to the kidney’s Sulfate excretion. Sulfate does excrete primarily through kidneys, However, sulfate homeastasis is not inmensely affected in non end stage diabetic nephropaty, let me elaborate a bit. We have used it extensively in motivated diabetic patients whose glycosilated Hb and mean glycemias where kept under tight diabetic control schemes, this means their complications out of advanced glycosilation end products and micro angiopathy were retarded so their Mogensen stage were at most III.  Therefore, we didn’t see any problem in kidney excretion in this group of patients.

Also, Magnesium can modify insulin’s sensitivity and I won’t elaborate on this one -too tired! all night shift!- LOL, but Magnesium from MgCl2 and from MgSO4 can modify this sensitivity EQUALLY. So in end stage or ill controlled diabetics I wonul’d use NEITHER!

* On the reference you cite, Dead sea contains mostly magnesium, thats why its so “bouyant” and thats why they use epsom salts too in flotation tanks for the added bouyancy. This is from the magnesium metal ions in aqueous solution and not from some mystical effect of the dead sea water itself other than its high magnesium concentration, as the flotation tank doesnt have mag oil or chloride ions. The health benefits noted were from the Mg ions.

Also to be noted, they soaked a bodypart in 15 minutes, we have now 3 references that a simple sprit in the armpits wont work, a whole body part need to be submerged in the solution for at least 12 - 15 minutes for it to work.

*Also thanks for providing your real life experience on the heat felt when a magnesium solution is to work, I would like someone to vigorously rub epsom’s salt solution on their forearm and report back if they felt this or not.

*Also of interest would be to rub ONLY chloride flakes on solution on your skin and look for the HOT sensation -CAUTION: Only to the same concentration as the one in Mag “Oil”, and I would have to determine that later on, a lot of calculations! and am too tired to think properly.

* Rubbing could and will indeed improve any ion transdermal diffusion althouth THERE HAVENT BEEN ANY IDENTIFIED active transports like symports, ion coupling, voltage doors, etc. Only water shunts but NOT for Mg specifically.

* To be completely fair I found a reference of an active Mg transporter in Golfish’s hair! I didnt even know they had hairs! LOL

*Plants also have active transmembrane transports and some bacteria too.

Thanks! great information.

* For greatest absorption DIRECTLY ON SCALP we should use a plastic bath cap as someone suggested here for 12 minutes after spraying and soaking the hair in the mag solution.

EDIT: Fixed typos and sentences errors. am off to sleep.

 

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# 29 ]

March 17, 2010, 11:54 AM

Marcelo - what an awsome answer to my qustion, I am so grateful! Your insights will contribute greatly to this site !

I used bentonite clay every other day for some months before lasering. I use emu oil when lasering, but washing it out afterwards. I also shower three times a day, for the application of all my topicals. My hair has become worse the last months, itchy and dry. Do you think excess bentonite usage could have contributed to this ?
Thanks again!

 

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# 30 ]

March 17, 2010, 12:02 PM

Socrates - March 17, 2010, 11:54 AM

Marcelo - what an awsome answer to my qustion, I am so grateful! Your insights will contribute greatly to this site !

I used bentonite clay every other day for some months before lasering. I use emu oil when lasering, but washing it out afterwards. I also shower three times a day, for the application of all my topicals. My hair has become worse the last months, itchy and dry. Do you think excess bentonite usage could have contributed to this ?
Thanks again!

Damn it, I dont know, I only shower once a day, look out for the wetting agents and detergents (a noun, actually correct name is emulsifiers, well depending on context, or more correctly surfactants) and another one to watch is PPG or propylene glycol as its very irritant to scalp. If you dry your scalp alot from all that hair washing and bentonite claying, and adding that your shampos may have PPG and strong surfactants thats why your scalp is dry and itchy. The only thing that helps my scalp in these cases is emu oil with tea tree oil on my scalp, put a plastic wrap and leave it on for 30 minutes to replenish my scalps lipids.

im off to sleep, hope it helped you a bit. examine your shampoos, try to make your own with liquid castile soap only and KOH and add essential oils. cut down on bentonite ALL SCALPS ARE DIFFERENT

 

 

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# 31 ]

March 17, 2010, 12:04 PM

Oh forgot to add, Aloe vera from whole leaf, organic without any added piece of crap WORKS WONDERS. I use it on my own patients wounds combined with colloidal silver. Forget the silver for now, go buy at GNC an organic aloe vera gel (not the GNC brand1) there are betters!

see you around

 

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# 32 ]

March 18, 2010, 11:45 AM

I must say that I have to ammend my recent feelings about my mag oil not penetrating.  I spent some extra time rubbing it in this morning, and I certainly felt the magnesium burn deep in my scalp.  So, I think I just needed to rub it a little more and my problem was “user error”.  I had heard that it penetrated great on it’s own -which isn’t exactly correct judging by sensations- so I “economized” my time and didn’t spend enough time rubbing it in a bit.

So, spray a little bit -the greasiness helps a little to go a long way- and really take the time to work it in.

This is actually applicable for all topicals… you need to spend time rubbing them in.  I think scalpure wants you to do it for 10 minutes, and even the Avacor sham (I haven’t heard that name in eons) said to rub each square inch area for about 20 seconds.  I should probably make a video or post about this at some point because a lot of topicals we use don’t really have instructions spelling out that we focus on spending the necessary time to rub it in.  In the past, I actually saw something that showed better results when you did that vs. just placing it on your head, but that was probably 10 years ago so I’ll never find it.

-O.M.G.


Build your own Laser Helmet | Laser Brush | Laser Device at OverMachoGrande.com!  The internet’s first, best, and biggest consumer advocate site on laser therapy for hair loss!  It’s time to educate yourself about one of the greatest treatments in FORUM HISTORY…

 

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# 33 ]

March 18, 2010, 01:14 PM

OverMachoGrande - March 18, 2010, 11:45 AM

I must say that I have to ammend my recent feelings about my mag oil not penetrating.  I spent some extra time rubbing it in this morning, and I certainly felt the magnesium burn deep in my scalp.  So, I think I just needed to rub it a little more and my problem was “user error”.  I had heard that it penetrated great on it’s own -which isn’t exactly correct judging by sensations- so I “economized” my time and didn’t spend enough time rubbing it in a bit.

So, spray a little bit -the greasiness helps a little to go a long way- and really take the time to work it in.

This is actually applicable for all topicals… you need to spend time rubbing them in.  I think scalpure wants you to do it for 10 minutes, and even the Avacor sham (I haven’t heard that name in eons) said to rub each square inch area for about 20 seconds.  I should probably make a video or post about this at some point because a lot of topicals we use don’t really have instructions spelling out that we focus on spending the necessary time to rub it in.  In the past, I actually saw something that showed better results when you did that vs. just placing it on your head, but that was probably 10 years ago so I’ll never find it.

-O.M.G.

It’s good to know, maybe rubbing it in augments its absortion.

 

 

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# 34 ]

March 20, 2010, 02:14 PM

I strongly believe that rubbing in ANY topical is clutch to get it to be at least somewhat effective.  Being lazy and simply spreading just won’t cut it…we have to apply that pressure to force it down into the skin membrane.

Great posts by the way…I have only been able to skim thus far but have a lot to read later!

 

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# 35 ]

March 23, 2010, 01:57 AM

Hello forum!

I had’t found enough time to continue this topic, so I found some time today, and I just want to clarify some points part by part to end my participation here. I’ve said enough already!

Immortal Hair - March 17, 2010, 11:24 AM

I’ve used a few products of magnesium oil, principally containing magnesium chloride, from sea water.

For some reason, not all of these products work the same. From my own experience, if there is an absence of heat sensation upon the vigorous rubbing of a tablespoon of magnesium oil, then the product probably doesn’t work, ..................

By skin rubbing any topical, you can help it’s absorption rate as this is a physical mean, but EVEN then, by just rubbing some mag oil spritz on your skin, or scalp, it won’t absorb in enough quantities to be of any use, unless as discussed before, you soak a body part in it for at least 10-12 minutes. For example You could soak your feet in dissolved Epsom Salts, or if you are rich, in mag oil.

So why is it do you feel a strong heat sensation deep under your skin when vigorously rubbing mag oil on it? The answer is because of the skin friction caused by un-dissolved particles in the water (mag oil), (in this case Magnesium and SO4 or Cl2). You see, if you use a very weakly concentrated mag oil (a non “premium mag oil”) on your skin, and you rub it in, there won’t be any friction, why? because all the mag particles are completely dissolved in a TRUE solution and thus are of atomic size! so no perceived friction here.

On the other hand, if you use a highly concentrated mag oil “a high quality one”, it will contain completely dissolved magnesium as a TRUE solution, BUT it will ALSO contain undissolved magnesium, in a dispersed phase as a colloid hydrosol! Thus the molecules will be very big and agglomerated (that’s why it leaves a white dandruff AND THATS WHY SNAKE OIL SALESMEN CALL IT “OIL” CAUSE IT FEELS OILY FOR THE AGGLOMERATION!), and if you rub this big agglomerates on your skin forcefully, the friction will generate the heat sensation.

The other mecanism, that can REALLY bring up the heat sensation is:
Everytime you dissolve Magnesium (Epsom, Citrate, mag oil (MgCl2), etc) in distilled water, it’s ion pairs will be solvated to Mg++ and Cl- Cl- or SO4+, these ions will in turn be surrounded by water molecules (hydrated) and in the case of magnesium will thus form this species: Mg(H2O)6(2+), this is a type of Lewis acid, a weak acid, as it can donate H+ ions to form Mg(H2O)5(OH)+.

If you remember, pH is a function of the inverse logarithm of pka*[Base]/[Acid in [H+]], so the base stays unchanged, but the H+ ions augment, thus lowering solution’s pH and causing acidity. This doesn’t lower skin’s pH, as it has ALOT of buffers, but it will however cause the heat sensation on your skin by the effects of the weak acid.

“Good” mag oil has a higher concentration of Magnesium, thus, inevitably a colloidal dispersed phase as an hydrosol, this partciles are way bigger than single atomic ions, so they will creates friction upon rubbing on skin, and this by itself will generate some heat.

The other mechanism is the lewis acid creating an mildly acidic environment which by itself can generate MORE HEAT that the friction mechanism I explained some lines above. These two mechanism together are sufficient to stimulate skin’s heat receptor’s threshold and via Parasympathetic nervous system afferent nerves give the off heat sensation to your brain cortex.

So to epithomize, the HEAT SENSATION is perceived only when using “good” mag oil i.e. highly concentrated mag oil, AND WILL ALSO BE FELT when using highly concentrated Epsom Salts in water soution. And is NOT by its effecgiveness or “power”, its becasue of lewis acid formation and from colloidal phase friction upon skin by rubbing it in.

Immortal Hair - March 17, 2010, 11:24 AM

unless one’s magnesium pump is not in order.
.................................

The mag oil salesmen always quote a “mag pump” and only gets people confused. Let me explain once and for all. This “mag pump” couldn’t be out of order, unless your genes codifying for those receptor’s proteins are damaged. There are some cases reported in medical literatyre of damaged genes that don’t codify the “mag pumps”, and these are hospitalized, very ill people that HAVE DANGEROUS HYPOMAGNESEMIA HYPOKALEMIA REFRACTARY TO TREAMENT, as the “mag pumps” are MOSTLY in the gut and kidneys, so they DON’T ABSORB MAGNESIUM THROUGH THEIR GUTs and they dont re-absorb it through their Kidneys’s convuluted diatl tubules! This has Nothing to do with skin!!

A mag pump is actually an active transporter that exist in all mammal’s epitheliums, but not on stratified keratized eithelia (i.e. skin). These pumps exists in epithelia from oocytes, gut lumen (mainly) and kidney’s nephrons at the distal convoluted tubules in adults, and distal convoluted tubules in infants. This “mag pumps” exists also in other non-mammal biological entities such as goldfish’s hair, every plant’s membranes, and in bacteria too, specially bacilus cereus.

As you can see, ALL living things need magnesium! it is essential and very good for our health, it participates in over 300 enzymatic reactions throughout the body, BUT IT IS NOT MAGICAL!
So use it wisely, and intelligently!

It simply doesn’t absorb well through skin even by rubbing! and the fact is THERE IS NO MAG PUMP ON SKIN. period.

Also, suppose there was a skin “mag pump”, just for you to FULLY understand this once and for all.
a Mag pump only puts magnesium to the other side of a membrane. It doesn’t generate energy or HEAT! on the contrary, it uses up energy to transport the Magnesium ion across, think of it like a ferry, it uses the ferry man’s muscular force to row, or like a car using up gasoline to transport people, or an elevator using up electricity to move through the floors in a building. A WORK will never produce Energy! On the contrary, WORK USES UP HEAT/ENERGY!  Can you imagine feeling more energetic and not feeling tired immediately after running a marathon? That’s exactly what happens, when you do a work, you spend energy, you don’ generate it. Period.

This work thus, would effectively use up energy and LOWER the skin temperature in 1x10-3 Celsius, being imperceptible, but it certainly WOULDN’T HEAT UP YOUR SKIN!

Now, I know mag oil salesmen and websites selling mag oil will tell you some half truths like this:

“IN FACT, ATP, THE MOLECULE THAT IS NATURE’S ENERGY STORAGE, EXISTS AS MAGNESIUM-ATP!!!”.

This is not true. its a half truth taken out of context. ATP Molecule’s energy resides in its 3 pyrophosphate high energy bonds, in the three PO4 groups. When these bonds are broken, heat is liberated, (not produced- Glycolisis produces it or photosynthesis in plants), and can be used up by living things as energy.

For example, Think you have a bon fire, you use the fire’s energy to cook food, or to heat up water to give up steam, to move a turbine and generate electricity. A primitive, straw-man overly simplistic explanation would be that biologic cells’s nanomachinery machinery and enzyme’s reactions use up this liberated heat to do WORK this way as you would use fire from a stove of bon fire.

ATP on the other hand, is only the storage, but by virtue of it’s own chemical configuration, it has a lot of free “binding sites” and so it’s a natural chelator, like lemon juice! Nothing magical here! It will chelate ANY metal ion it comes across, including Magnesium. In fact, ATP has ALOT MORE affinity to chelate Ca++ ion than Mg++ ions.

Chelation DOESN’T produce energy or heat, Energy IS NOT PRODUCED, ITS ONLY TRANSFORMED. Remember thermodynamics First Law! Energy is transformed from sugar, from GLYCOLISIS THROUGH KREBS CYCLE!

Many people combine the “mag pump” erroneous concept with the “ATP in nature exists as Mg-ATP” with the “ATP is nature’s energy storage” and conclude incorrectly, or manipulatively, That Magnesium somehow produces energy by using a “mag pump” that doesnt exists in human skin and by combining with ATP by chelation will and hence produce HEAT! isn’t it RIDICULOUS!?

Hence people get confused and say “magnesium rubbed in skin will use mag pump (which doesn’t exist in skin) to produce Mg-ATP (Why would it? - the Mag pump if it WOULD exist in skin would ONLY transport Mg into cell , not chelate it with aTP) which in turn will produce energy and hea"t -Mg doesnt hold any energy or makes ATP liberate its energy, it is only “glued” -chelated- to ATP, in an inert way. Energy is produces by glycolisis!

Do you see this is completely illogical and doesnt make any sense?

I will give a final example using a metaphore.

Suppose you have a gasoline fueled car (ATP). The gasoline in the tank is the pyrophosphate bonds (the real nature’s storage for energy as heat), suppose that car has a magnet on its roof top (ATP’s free bonds to chelate) and this magnet pulls up a single metal, everytime as you are riding around, and the stay magnetised to the magnet, these metals can be anything from Magnesium, Calcium, P, Mn, Zn, etc (This is what really happens in nature, in fact it will pull Ca+ ALOT MORE than magnesium - This is called chelation), suppose the car is on one side of a river, and there’s not enough magnesium on this side of the river, and someone puts some bridges across the river for the magnesium to cross to your side
(that would be incorrectly called a “Mag Pump”, or correctly called a Magnesium Symport or active transporter)
Now, the Magnesium crosses the river (Mag pump) it has to use energy, someone has to take it over the bridge, it can’t generate energy for doing a work! when it crosses it gets magnetized and “glued” to your car’s (ATP) magnet (chelating free bonds) on its rooftop, in an inert way.

Now , explain why it would generate heat, when all it did was getting bonded to the magnet? The energy is in your car’s fuel tank. If you burn the gasoline (pyrophosphate bonds) it WILL generate fire and HEAT. If you only stick the Mg to your car’s (ATP’s) magnet (chelating free bonds) it wil do NOTHING, except keep it sticked there (Chelated).

Now suppose someone builds up a wall ceiling formed by bricks and mortar (Skin’s stratum corneum and lipid acids), all over the river, bridges and your car.

Now, How would magnesium deposited on the brick ceiling top, or rubbed on it’s top would come down through the wall to even reach the “mag pump” ? and If it does, suppose it crosses the bridge and gets magnetized to the roof top of the car, WHY IN HEAVEN WOULD IT GENERATE HEAT? WHEN THE TRANPOSRT USES UP HEAT AND WOULD LOWER HEAT INSTEAD?

IF WE FORGET EVERYTHING I SAID, let’s SUPPOSE IT WOULD GENERATE HEAT, the kilocalories it would generate would be in the order of tens of thousands of 1 single Celsius degree, so that heat wouldn’t EVEN be felt by your skin’s threshold of thermo receptors so it wouldn’t be carried by your parasympathetic afference as the summatory of potentials wouldn’t cros the threshold for it to be carried as stimulus to your brain cortex so you wouldnt even perceive it as heat!!

If, on the other hand, you were to build a swimming pool full of Magnesium on top of the brick wall, (example: Prolonged foot soaking in a mag solution) it WOULD with time, permeate the bricks and mortar and reach the car’s (ATP) magnet (chealting free bonds) and be “glued” innertly to it (chelated) but WOULNDT produce heat or energy!

SPRITZING MAG OIL IN YOUR ARMPITS REBUTTAL Some snake oil salesmen advice users to sprit mag oil in armpits -I already said that the argument of using axillary lymphatic system is a blatant lie-)


CONTRADICTIONS BY MAG OIL BOKS WRITERS AND SALESMEN.
I took this From the web site of Mark Sircus, an Acupuncturist extensively cited and quoted by mag oil selling websites, and who at the same time endorses the same webpages that quote him! -Revolving door’s scheme!-

It clearly says in his webpage:

There are many things that affect skin absorption.[5] Absorption occurs by distribution around and through the cells that make up the skin.  Some absorption takes place along hair follicles or through sweat ducts.  Skin thickness and barrier accessibility are different in various areas so absorption rates will vary in different parts of the body.  For example, hydrocortisone (a synthetic preparation used in the treatment of inflammations, allergies and itching) is absorbed through the skin 6 times better on the forehead than on the arm, and 44 times better on the scrotum.
The physical condition of the skin at the point of external application is another significant variable.  The skin of an infant or child is more permeable than that of adults. The skin over the organs in decreasing order of permeability is genitals, head and neck, trunk, arm and leg.[6] Skin abrasion allows a locally applied substance to come directly in contact with subcutaneous tissue and blood vessels. Absorption is at a much higher rate than in healthy skin. Inflammation leaves the skin leaky and allows larger molecules to be absorbed.

So why in heaven would they recommend aplpying it in your armpits as spritz, if their SAME WEBPAGE says it gets abosrved THE LEAST in the arms!  -According to this, the arms and legs are the least absobing anatomical areas- The notion that it will use armpit’s lymphatic system is charlatanerie. There’s not a single reference for that in the web, as I already told you ,except of course, the mag oil selling websites and the quoted expert’s mag books that endorse those same products! revolving doors scheme in use here!

So to summarize: No, spritzing mag oil in your armpits, won’t work, as quoted from THE OWN mag oil expert’s website. Even if they contradict themselves, they STILL somehow recommend you to do it!

——————————————-
Medical quacks, pseudo researchers, and charlatans always mix up truth or half truths , or truths taken out of context, with blatant lies linked to their products. And ONLY reference themselves back and forth, one-another in CIRCLES!

Look at this quote, from the Mag Experts that are referenced as the knowledge source by the magnesium oil selling website:

REVOLVING DOORS SCHEME

We have been using magnesium chloride oil in our health and healing programs for nearly ten years, and we get consistently positive, sometimes very dramatic, results with it, especially when used transdermally. Of all the sources we’ve tried, Ancient Minerals is the one that delivers the fastest, most potent therapeutic benefits. It contains essential elements that no longer exist in ocean water today, and is totally free of any toxic contaminant. In addition, Ancient Minerals seems to have subtle energetic properties due to millions of years of subterranean activity. We highly recommend this product for both preventive and curative health care.” - Daniel and Snow Reid

This is revolving door CLASSICAL scheme at place at it’s best!: Some experts endorse a product, and the product in turn references and sources themselves ONLY in those same experts!

They Also use ALOT of Pacing and leading. Take this for example.

PACING AND LEADING:

Look at this, in a nutshell, they pace you: They tell you something true, so you basically think everything that follows is also true, as they stablish as authorities, and they LEAD you to other incorrect statments so you also believe those are true too, usually false and misleading statements about why their product is magical and better than alreay existing cheap ones, or exagerate any real advantage they can have.

Mark Sircus wrote on his webpage:
Transdermal medicine is ideal for pain management as well as sports and pediatric medicine. In fact it is one of the best ways of administering medicines quickly and effectively. Transdermal methods of delivery are widely used because they allow the absorption of medicine directly through the skin. Gels, emulsion creams, sprays and lip balm stick applicators are easy to use and are effective in getting medicine into the blood stream quickly.

Traditional methods of administering medicine such as tablets or capsules get watered down and become much less effective due to stomach acids and digestive enzymes, before they eventually get into the bloodstream.

So far this is true, they stablish as authority first, and they start pacing you step by step, specially when you are “off guard” mentally.

at the beach you receive the full benefits of the sea with its high concentrations of magnesium in the water and iodine in the air, which is taken up by the lungs. It actually takes quite a bit of magnesium chloride flakes in a bath to bring bathwater up to the concentration of ocean water, but it is well worth the effort and expense for the health benefits are spectacular.

This is another true sentence they keep pacing you slowly and then follows the LEADING:

Transdermal magnesium therapy is ideal for pain management. The combination of heat and magnesium chloride increases circulation and waste removal. The therapeutic effect of magnesium baths is to draw inflammation out of the muscles and joints. Magnesium chloride, when applied directly to the skin is transdermally absorbed and has an almost immediate effect on pain.

WOW! where did THAT came from? If you are “off guard” mentally as you read, you ASSUME it MUST BE TRUE! where is the reference to this? How come 88 years of serious research tells you ions don’t penetrate skin readily except using iontophoresis and prolonged soakings in whole body baths and wraps for 24-48hrs, and this acupunturist tells you this as an ABSOLUT FACT, referencing ONLY his OWN book, with NO REFERENCE whatsoever on scientific world, historically socially constructed database of scientific knowledge! and endorsing the product Ancient Minerals who in turn reference him as an authority! more revolving doors and epistemological fatal mistakes!!

ON ONE SIDE WE HAVE THIS:
MAG OIL “BODY” “A”:
There will always be pioneers (one or two individuals) who CREATE this false epistemological ground of knowledge out of thin air (maybe with good intentions, or EVEN deluded themselves in thinking they had good intentions or with total commercial interests), They cross reference with each other, they endorse expensive supplements who in turn are sourced from these same authors creating a revolving door situation, and a vicious cycle.
-Then ALOT of OTHER homeopaths, acupunturists, osteopaths, hollistic health practitioners, chiropractors, massage therapists etc will take that false body of knowledge and use it as a source, and start recommending the product themselves, and creating more and more false knowldge, as people all over the world using it will “think” they obtained a benefit and this is from the placebo effect (it has been stimated ato be around 20%) then with the power of the internet these communal growing body of knowledge will be ALL OVER THE PLACE very quickly.
-Then its hard to know which was first? Many will quote other as correct, and those same others will quote back the first ones, etc. so they create confusion and people with HOPE will believe it’s true and shed their money for something that hasn’t been proven to work yet.  Then use pseudoscientific quotes to satanize their counterpart as TOO ALKALINE, CAN CREAT FUNGUS INFECTIONS, HAS HEAVY METALS, GETS EXCRETED EASILY BY KIDNEYS (btw, Magnesium Ions from epsoms’s and from mag “Oil” are EXACTLY the same, so WHY WOULD EPSOMS MAGNESIUM GET EXCRETED EASILY BY KIDNEYS AND MG OILS WONT?

AND ON THE OTHER SIDE WE HAVE:
MAGNESIUM SCIENCE “BODY” “B”:  MEDICAL, PHYSICAL-CHEMICAL, BIOLOGICAL AND THEMODYNAMICS’S RESEARCH, BIOCHEMISTRY RESEARCH, COSMETIC DRUG TRANSCUTANEOUS DELIVERY RESEARCHER’S EXPERIENCE, ETC. OF 88+ YEARS who have ALWAYS found after repeated experiments, for years and year, that IONS DONT CROSS SKIN EASILY. thats why they develop micro skin piercing, liposomes, transdermal carriers, co-solvent technology, acid buffers to increase penetration, iontophoresis, phonophoresis, etc. WHY WOULD THEY EVEN BOTHER? ?? IT’S NOT EVEN FUNNY!

IS there something that serious researchers from “BODY A” ignore, that somehow, the people from “Mag oil BODY A” Know and use in everyday life as easy-breezy!!

Why? is this logical? can ou explain this?
[/size]

Quakery/charlatanerie summarize/pacing and leading/revolving door scheme summarize:

-Mag oil salesmen’ scientific explanation for their purported great mag oil’s absorption through skin is: “Human skin is a living organism” and thus they conclude that if it is alive, it must absorb magnesium ions through it easily and well!

-The only references to a “GREAT MAG OIL ABSORPTION THROUGH SKIN” are in “THE TAO OF DETOX” and “MAGNESIUM OIL MIRACLE” kind of books and in websites that sell MAGNESIUM OIL.

-They are BACKED UP by the two greatest “world magnesium experts” like Mark Sircus, An acupunturist and Daniel Reid, which holds a Masters of Arts degree in Chinese Language and Civilization.

-They reference themselves on books like “The Tao Of Detox”
The Tao of Detox - USA (Inner Traditions, 2006)  By Daniel Reid, and Norman Shealy, the same ones that “recommends” “Ancient Minerals” Mag Oil!! and “Ultra pure mag oil” so please notice the Revolving doors scheme ocurring here!

-They NEVER reference in TRUE scientific body of knowledge, but in themselves.

-The ONLY “SERIOUS” and Scientific-like reference used back and foth by all mag oil selling websites and mag oil book writers, is a study in which the volunteers applied some mag oil spritz throughout their bodies, and their blood mag levels raised…. OH.. AND BY THE WAY, THEY ALSO DID DAILY FOOT SOAKS FOR 20 MINUTES!
- I wonder what would have happened if they didn’t use the foot soaks but ONLY the mag oil spritz??
-It’s as RIDICULOUS AS SAYING “I did a study to prove topical sugar water will absorb to my bloodstream easily and immediately, I put some sugar spritz on my head and measured my blood sugar levels, and lo and behold! my sugar levels raised significatively… Oh, I forgot, I also administered 5g of sugar via an I.V line”

-Mag oil experts use ALOT of PACING and LEADING in their books to tell you how great magnesium is (IT IS!) to pace you and lead you to false, half truths recommending mag oil products which in turn refernce themselves in the experts that endorse them in the first place!

EPITHOME (FOR THIS LONG LONG LONG POST OF MINE)

-Magnesium is ESSENTIAL for life, and it’s usage to improve MPB effects could have REAL and considerable benefits!

-Unfortunately, Topical Mg WILL NOT ABSORB through intact scalp or skin, EVEN IF YOU RUB IT, the prove is they leave a “white dandruff” on your skin.

-Topical Mg WILL ABSORB through intact scalp or skin, BUT ONLY if you soak a body part in it for at least 12 minutes, at least 3 times a week, example, feet soak.

-There doesn’t exist a “mag pump” in human skin, only in ovocytes, kidneys, and gut, goldfish, and plants and some bacteria as Bacilus Cereus.

-A “failed” “mag pump” will produce refractary hypokalemia/hypomagnesemia and a quick death if not treated by IV Mag / K. This has only been observed in sporadic cases in very rare diseases only.

-Heat sensation from rubbing magnesium IS NOT an indicator of its “potency” or “usefulness”,
the heat is caused by lewis acid formation from hydrated Mg ions and from friction by the colloidal phase of un-dissolved agglomerated Mag ions (thus the skin oiliness and white residue/dandruff). This HEAT WILL BE FELT with HIGHLY CONCENTRATED EPSOMS SALTS TOO *Already tried it, go ahead and do it yourself!*

-Mg-ATP Chelation WILL NOT GENERATE ENERGY, you cannot generate energy, only transform it. Energy in humans is transformed by glycolisis from sugar molecules, via krebs cycle, NOT FROM MG. ATP has more chelation afinity for other metal ions over magnesium, such as Ca++.
Mg-ATP WILL NOT GENERATE HEAT, be it from Epsom’s or from Mag “Oil”.

-A Topical alternative, is BENTONITE CLAY as it “pulls out” sebum, toxins and calcium. I would recommend it INSTEAD of any mag product including epsom salts or mag oil for this purpose only. To reap the benefits of Magnesium AND bentonite clay, I would ALSO do foot soaks in Epsom salts for 12 minutes 3 times a week OR take 500 mg oral SRT chelated magneisum once a day AND use the Bentonite Clay on scalp 3 times a week to avoid over drying and scalp itchiness/irritation, followed by pure organic whole-leaf aloe vera gel on scalp AFTER lasering and using a plastic bath cap for 20 minutes to replenish scalp hydration. Then styling your hair, this will work as a natural styling Gel!

-An alternative to topical Magnesium usage is ORAL magnesium supplements, but in regular form, it has a mild laxative effect that is dose-dependent. Mag miracle books are RIGHT in this, Magnesium has ALOT of health benefits! but it sadly doesn’t absorb well enough through skin via ocassional spritz!

-A VERY INTELLIGENT ALTERNATIVE THAT I HIGHLY RECOMMEND is, if you don’t want to do the foot soaks in epsom salts (or mag oil for the rich) then forget the topical use, and use instead an oral supplementation of sustained release chelated magnesium, 500mg a day only 3 times a week. You will get TONS of benefits -incuding follicle’s decalcification- and NO laxative effects. I recommend 500mg of oral Mg. at most, 3 times a week and titrate with Mg blood test determination.

If you still will rather forget the oral mag, epsoms or mag oil foot soaks and the bentonite clay, and will stick to topical magnesium, NO MATTER WHAT, then I recommend EPSOM SALTS.

-Epsom Salts are NOT any more alkaline than Mag “Oil”

-Epsom Salts won’t produce fungal infections on your body.

-Epsom salts’ SULFATE won’t clog up your kidneys if you are young and healthy and without any preexisting kidney problem.

-Epsom Salts are NOT dangerous for controlled diabetics without advanced kidney damage anymore than mag oil is.

-Edible USP grade Epsom Salts DO NOT contain heavy metals any more than Mag “Oil” does

-Epsom Salts can be added with Organic Sea Salts and you will get MORE trace minerals and oligoellements than ANY mag “Oil” could possibly have.

-Magnesium ions FROM MAG OIL OR FROM EPSOM’S are not absorved in the armpit’s lymphatic system through sebaceous/apocrine/sweat glands.

-Epsom salts in solution produce EXACTLY THE SAME MAGNESIUM IONS AS MAG OIL (Unless the ones from Mag “Oil” are somehow magical and mysterious!!) AND are gram-by-gram, dollar-by-dollar aprox. 546 as cheap as mag “Oil”.

——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

My personal recommendations:

-Take out Calcification from your follicles via:

1) First Choice: Use Oral chelated sustained release Magnesium, 500mg a day, 3 times a week. This won’t laxate you and you will get TONS of benefits including follice decalcification.
***OPTIONAL (BUT RECOMMENDED): USE ALSO Bentonite Clay, so it pulls out sebum, demodex, dead skin, toxins, etc from your scalp. Use it 3 times a week for 20 minutes. ***ALSO OPTIONAL BUT HIGHLY RECOMMENDED: Follow this by an Aloe Vera application as this:

NATURAL ALOE VERA GEL:
*Use a whole-leaf organic Aloe Vera Gel, or buy a REAL PLANT whole leaf from a nature shop, and take out the gel with a metal spoon, and place it in a glass jar. If it is too sticky for your taste (It most probably will!) mix it in a 50% -50% ratio with a teaspoon of natural lemon strained juice (as a preservative), and distilled water in a common kitchen blender or use different ratios such as 30%-70% until you find a consistency that you like. After this, store in your fridge (not in freezer).
This will be “good” for about a week, if you use home-made (Or store bought) colloidal silver (as a gel preservative and scalp/hair topical bactericde/bacteriostat) instead of the distilled water in the same proportions, your mix will endure in the fridge for at least 1 month, and you will get ALOT more benefits from the bacteria killing power of the colloidal silver.

-SIDE NOTE: I’ve used colloidal silver topically to KILL an MRSA infection on a head wound in an old manpatient of mine that just wouldn’t heal, he was diabetic, was anemic and very weak, used EVERY antibiotic extensively including Linezolid and he was geting septic. With the daily, 24 hours continuous application of a rag soaked in colloidal silver and oral colloidal silver use, I was able to clear this infection completely in 5 days.

-If you think adding colloidal silver is too complicated, then don’t use the silver, but instead use ONLY the lemon juice as stated above, as a preservative.

* After this gel is made following above explained instructins, apply it on your scalp with a glass dropper (specially when using the colloidal silver, as it won’t leech ions from the plastic) and follow by wearing a plastic bath cap for 20 minutes to replenish dry and itchy scalp and greatly increase your scalp hydration and remove inflammation, and kill all nasty nugs there.
- Aloe Vera has ALOT of antiinflammatory alkaloids, as welll as it inhibits Hystidine-decarboxilase, an enzime that forms HISTAMINE, thus it will effectively diminish itchyness naturally.

*Do not wash out! Style your hair with this gel, and let it air dry or mildly COLD-blow dry it. This will work as a natural styling gel, and it won’t leave your hair or scalp oily, on the contrary, they will be very clean, protected, hydrated and shiny.

*The Aloe Vera treatment as explained here, CAN BE USED PREPARED, STORED, AND USED ANY DAY! as per the above instructions. With or without bentonite clay, lasering, Epsom’s, Mag “Oil”, Oral Mag, etc. Just use if AFTER mild shampooing, as a styling gel.
********************

2) Second Choice: Prepare a Magnesium solution made from 1 Liter regular tap water (or distilled water if you feel paranoid) and 30g of edible food grade USP Epsoms’ salts, with 1 added teaspoon of organic celtic salts. Shake well.
*Do feet soaking in this solution for 12 minutes, 3 times a week
***OPTIONAL (BUT RECOMMENDED): ALSO USE Bentonite Clay +/- Aloe Vera,  as indicated above.

OR

3) Third Choice:Use ONLY Bentonite Clay as indicated above,
+/- Aloe Vera,  as indicated above. WITHOUT any Magnesium, oral or topical.

OR

5)Fourth Choice: Prepare a Magnesium Solution as stated above, but instead of foot soaks, apply to your scalp with a dropper until dripping wet and wear a plastic bath cap for 20 minutes to aid in absorption, same principle as foot soaking!
*To increase absorption through scalp even more, heat up the magnesium solution to a comfortable hot-warm (not burning!) temperature before applying.
***CONCOMITANT Bentonite Clay usage IS NOT USEFUL HERE! and NOT recommended.

OR

5) Fifth and LAST Choice: IF you don’t believe anything I said and have been persuaded by quacks and charlatans, or have blind faith in expensive mag oil, then ONLY buy Mag Oil and apply only to your scalp and armpits in spritz and rub vigorously!

“After all, “we all know” that the HEAT sensation is an indicator of its power and effectiveness, don’t we? why not? it joins ATP by chelation and chelation PRODUCES ENERGY! -well not IN ANY OTHER CHELATION IN NATURE, BUT THIS IS DIFFERENT!- so it MUST produce energy, glycolisis is NOT needed, as Mg WILL produce energy out of the blue by itself, and this will be SO MUCH that it WILL be “picked up” by your “normally” nanosensitive skin thermoreceptors and sent to your brain as heat, right? after all, it uses the “mag pump” AND THAT IS IN EVERY HUMAN SKIN CELL, right? So It hasn’t been previously found! but it is only that 88 years of science are wrong, and mag oil salesmen knew this all the time, but they haven’t communicated it to researchers yet! And also, when you use the “mag pump” and produce a work to transport the mag oil, you MUST produce energy too as heat! doesn’t it make sense? Of course! The first law of thermodynamics is wrong, when it states that energy can be transformed (changed from one form to another), but cannot be created or destroyed! So Mag ions when chelated to ATP WILL CREATE energy out of the blue, Glycolisis or Photosynthesis are not needed! This law is ridiculous! Mag oil sales man are right!
After all, All of this is in the book seller’s references and also in mag oil selling websites! which doesn’t use the “revolving doors scheme” they just recommend each other out of good will! And they also don’t use “pacing and leading” manipulation, They only use this technique to EMPHASIZE what iks already true!! and They don’t forget to reference real science, after all, real science is wrong, so why reference them instead of the mag oil book writers?
*So all of this MUST be correct, thats why their MAGNESIUM ions are MAGICAL and different from the 546 times cheaper Epsom Salts! because that magnesium in solution somehow is different from their magnesium in solution, its different isotope, one never seen before, and this one doesn’t do the bad things magnesium from Epsoms salts (remember, tis very different) that clog kidneys, produces fungus in skin, are dangerous for diabetics and are very alkaline -the chemical databases are wrong too!! Epsoms ARE ALKALINE!!-
*And ALL OF THIS MUST be TRUE! as these MAG “OIL” SALES MEN are HERE ONLY to HELP ME/YOU!!
*                  Or… Aren’t they?...”

********************************************************

*PLEASE:*
Understand this, everthing that has been laid out here by me, has been very carefully and throughfully researched and logically-scientifically un-biasedly explained by scientific and ALSO everyday examples and metaphores to make some points clear, Also I tried to make it as easy to understand as possible! PLEASE don’t make “Rebuttals” with 2-3 lines of copy-pasted out-of-context biased half truth pseudoscientific facts taken from epistemologically dubious sources of knowledge such as some mag oil book, or some mag oil selling website sales-pitch letter!! Please instead, I invite you to do your own serious research as I did, if you and think/feel I am mistaken in any point or have any idea or valuable fact, that can calrify or buld upon what we already have here, then let’s discuss it here if you will.

I think that is enough to help you make your own decisions and make up your mind as to what to do! And if it doesn’t, then I invite you to critically analyze and re-think everything that’s been said here. 

If you are too lazy, don’t have time or just won’t read or have any of this out of a strong blind faith in mag oil books and mag oil selling websites, then I sincerely wish the best of lucks, and to enjoy your 20% placebo effect!

I won’t waste any more time/energy/thought on this topic, as there are other more important ones, as that have ALOT to add to, like LASERS! and I think this one is exhausted to logical, concrete conclusions already beyond my own will and current resources to clarify even more deeply/throughfully.

Thanks to you all you for listening/reading, and following this topic!

This was my offering to you, read it, analyze it, introyect it and take what “resonates” with you.
Take this for what it is!

EDIT: Tried to fix all typos and grammar inexactitudes. Also added more examples and complemented some metaphores, and tried to clear some concepts up. Sorry if my narrative/idea deployment are not fully correct! English is not my native tongue.

Cordially and with best regards,
Dr. Marcelo-Oswaldo, M.D.

 

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marcelo

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Total Posts: 93

Member Since:
February 2010

# 36 ]

March 24, 2010, 02:08 PM

UPDATE:

I was taling to Nid about Oral MAg, just to clarify,
When I said chelated magnesium I meant
alpha-ketogluconate, aspartate, glycinate, lysinate, orotate, taurate forms. Those means “chelated”
Any of those.

SRT is to avoid having two dosages a day, but only one in the morning to avoid sleep problems, as SOME will have, some will not.

5-10mg per kg of ideal bodyweight is my recommendation, more on the lower number, and on the higher threshold only if you are really in need of it, for example, surgery, very hot weather, regular athlete, etc.

Also:

Magnesium HAS NOTHING to do in “ATP Cylcle” , it doesnt hold up energy, nor does it releases it from ATP, it is only chelated to ATP. ATP will chelate Ca++ before Mag. Mg helps ATP to stya bonded to enzimes FTER its formed.

ATP cycle is here: As you can see it doesnt have Mg as a substrate in ANY step.

atpcycle.gif

On the other hand, Mg is added AFTER, and only as a chelated metal ion, remember, ATP chelates Ca ++ more than Mg.

I did a GIF (sorry it not rotatres smothly! I am post all night shift! so, very sleepy!) out of a rasmol model of an ATP molecule chelating an Mg++ ion for Nid, the Mg ion is in green, it doesnt participate in the high energy pyrophosphate bonds in the SO4 molecules (red-orange), as it is only innertly chelated there. The Ribose (sugar) is in gray and red, and the adenosine is in gray and blue.

magatpscreenstream.gif


Mag oil salesmen or erroneously informated people with good intentions will tell you “Mg is essential to form ATP energy” which as you can see, is no true. The ATP molecule is formed by a sugar (ribose) a nucleic base (Adenin) and Fosfate (PO4) x 3 molecules. The phosphate bonds are the ones that actually hold the energy as HEAT. Heats is used by enzymes and molecular/cellular machinery to produce WORK, A lot similar of how you would use up a common fire to transform energy and do work, cook, heat water, etc.

The Mg is chelated to ATP iinertly. It also can help ATP bind more strongly to enzimes, but any divalent cation can do that too. It doesnt liberate heat.

Hope its a little clearer now!

EDIT: Tried to fix typos and add a little information to make this clearer.

 

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# 37 ]

March 24, 2010, 07:31 PM

Just a quick mag oil testimonial: it is undoubtedly a profound wound healer.  I used to get compliments on my hair, in my teens. Now in my thirties, I get compliments on my skin.  i am quite confident that mag oil plays a huge role in that.  I also stopped taking mag supps shortly after commencing transdermal mag oil, and I am convinced that prior to both I was deficient in magneium.  Swansons has the best bang for buck in town on mag oil.  If u can stand the pain, u will get the gain.  PS—totally recommend using as an oral rinse as well, as I have for over a year. 

All said, as I said many years a go, if someone can figure out how to make magnesium absorption painless and cosmetically brilliant, I’d be all ears.  in the meantime, i wouldn’t discount mag oil by any stretch: fundamental shit that the chicks wish they knew about.

 

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# 38 ]

March 24, 2010, 11:02 PM

Gibson - March 24, 2010, 07:31 PM

Just a quick mag oil testimonial: it is undoubtedly a profound wound healer.  I used to get compliments on my hair, in my teens. Now in my thirties, I get compliments on my skin.  i am quite confident that mag oil plays a huge role in that.  I also stopped taking mag supps shortly after commencing transdermal mag oil, and I am convinced that prior to both I was deficient in magneium.  Swansons has the best bang for buck in town on mag oil.  If u can stand the pain, u will get the gain.  PS—totally recommend using as an oral rinse as well, as I have for over a year. 

All said, as I said many years a go, if someone can figure out how to make magnesium absorption painless and cosmetically brilliant, I’d be all ears.  in the meantime, i wouldn’t discount mag oil by any stretch: fundamental shit that the chicks wish they knew about.

Nobody is discounting it!
Undoubtedly as a topical TOPICALLY, it works, that is, a skin inflammation OF COURSE will be healead, as it is topical, and of course it helps with acne and superficial injuries.

And yeah, Swanson’s is a good Mag, though expensive.

 

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# 39 ]

March 24, 2010, 11:07 PM

I am going to agree with Gibson.  I also have been using Swanson’s (from the Ancient Zechstein Sea, it just sounds good, I know) to great benefit.  I use it on the skin every morning 3 sprays for my daily magnesium intake and can tell the difference.  I used to take Mag Malate tablets and discerned what a decent dose of magnesium felt like from that.  Same feeling with the sprays.  Muscles start to relax,  serotonin energy boost pure and simple, smooths skin, heats without rubbing.  I know it works in this capacity.


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March 24, 2010, 11:12 PM

Good!

we are getting more and more real world experience. The base of GREAT science is always begin with repeated observations in real life. This is empirical basis of science research.
I will start rubbing it in myself and having Magnesium blood and urine samples before and after, we have to figure this out.

Please keep writing your mag experiences. If anyone has labs that changed ONLY with topical rubbed mag I would love to hear it.

Thanks

 

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March 25, 2010, 09:55 AM

marcelo, I read your entire post and just wanted some additional clarification on a point:

You wrote that Transdermal Mag will not absorb through intact skin (unless you soak for 12+ minutes).  When I put mag oil on my face after shaving or on my scalp why does it burn/sting so much? Do you mean that it doesn’t absorb through undamaged skin, or that it doesn’t absorb systematically (only locally to the application point) unless soaked?

Second, can you please provide a link via iHerb or similar of “Oral chelated sustained release Magnesium” to purchase?

 

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# 42 ]

March 25, 2010, 12:29 PM

xyion1 - March 25, 2010, 09:55 AM

marcelo, I read your entire post and just wanted some additional clarification on a point:

You wrote that Transdermal Mag will not absorb through intact skin (unless you soak for 12+ minutes).  When I put mag oil on my face after shaving or on my scalp why does it burn/sting so much? Do you mean that it doesn’t absorb through undamaged skin, or that it doesn’t absorb systematically (only locally to the application point) unless soaked?

Second, can you please provide a link via iHerb or similar of “Oral chelated sustained release Magnesium” to purchase?

Yes, I meant to explain that in my theorizing, a simple vigorous rub of some mag oil spritz on your skin/scalp will not absorb SIGNIFICANTLY on a systemic-wise manner, and neither will reach to deep dermal parts of skin -i.e. calcified follices. It will of course “touch” topical structures, and if you just shaved of course it will sting! It will also heal superficial inflammation.

Epsom Salts STING LIKE HELL when put on a rash or skin abrasion.

The reason for mag oil HEAT and STING is that magnesium oil or epsom salts on solution, as I explained ALOT of times before now, BECOME dissolved to ELEMENTAL METAL MEGNESIUM IONS.

These ions get hydrated, and form a weak acid called a Lewis acid which can donate H+‘s, that’s why it stings, the pH goes down to about 4.5, maybe less sometimes. a Low pH is acidic.

Magnesium will not create ENERGY. Metals don’t hold up energy. Energy can’t be created EVER, only transformed. You could create energy by a metal for example by dropping one kilogram of magnesium through a window and using up its cinetic energy by pusing a mill or something, but NOT by rubbing on skin. The heat of rubbing is from the lewis acid and from the WORK you create with your muscles -with the glucose and ATP you are using up from the FOOD you ingested- when you rub an undissolved portion on your skin (thus the oily feeling and the “dandruff” flakes.)

 

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# 43 ]

March 25, 2010, 03:58 PM

marcelo - March 25, 2010, 12:29 PM

Yes, I meant to explain that in my theorizing, a simple vigorous rub of some mag oil spritz on your skin/scalp will not absorb SIGNIFICANTLY on a systemic-wise manner, and neither will reach to deep dermal parts of skin -i.e. calcified follices. It will of course “touch” topical structures, and if you just shaved of course it will sting! It will also heal superficial inflammation.

(remaining post deleted to keep the thread shorter)

Thanks for the further explanation.

It doesn’t sound like topical Mag Oil is really any value added for anything but the outermost layers of the skin, even with significant rubbing and it wont reach deep enough to affect the follicles.

Will other topical solutions (such as emu oil) penetrate deep enough to be of any effect?  It looks like Minoxidil can make it (not advocating), but what about the other treatments such as Folligen or Dermaheal for example.  Or is a dermaroller required to punch through the outer layers and get right in there?

It sounds like your opinion for de-calcifying is internal magnesium (please, provide a link to a suitable product) and clay to remove buildup from above.  I’ve been using Scalpure for the past 6 months or so with no apparent further regression so maybe the magnesium is what I need to kick it into overdrive and restore the 1/2” or so which has receded.

 

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# 44 ]

March 26, 2010, 12:18 PM

xyion1 - March 25, 2010, 03:58 PM

marcelo - March 25, 2010, 12:29 PM

Yes, I meant to explain that in my theorizing, a simple vigorous rub of some mag oil spritz on your skin/scalp will not absorb SIGNIFICANTLY on a systemic-wise manner, and neither will reach to deep dermal parts of skin -i.e. calcified follices. It will of course “touch” topical structures, and if you just shaved of course it will sting! It will also heal superficial inflammation.

(remaining post deleted to keep the thread shorter)

Thanks for the further explanation.

It doesn’t sound like topical Mag Oil is really any value added for anything but the outermost layers of the skin, even with significant rubbing and it wont reach deep enough to affect the follicles.

Will other topical solutions (such as emu oil) penetrate deep enough to be of any effect?  It looks like Minoxidil can make it (not advocating), but what about the other treatments such as Folligen or Dermaheal for example.  Or is a dermaroller required to punch through the outer layers and get right in there?

It sounds like your opinion for de-calcifying is internal magnesium (please, provide a link to a suitable product) and clay to remove buildup from above.  I’ve been using Scalpure for the past 6 months or so with no apparent further regression so maybe the magnesium is what I need to kick it into overdrive and restore the 1/2” or so which has receded.

Minoxidil penetrates skin because it is soluble in Alcohol, so Ethanol and a co/solvent (PPG) Are used together for it to adequately get int oyour follicles and deep dermis. Even though, you see it leaves some “white dandruff” on your scalp. Imagine if it didn’t have a solvent AND a co-solvent!, those are the “Carriers” or the “transporters”.

On the other hand, emu oil or any REAL OIL, WILL penetrate your skin, as they are LIPOSOLUBLE.

MAG OIL is NOT an oil, it is just called “oil” because it feels oily on your skin because of its great tonicity (osmolarity).

As for ORAL supplementation, I would recommend a chelated form, preferably one that contains AS FEW AS POSSIBLE IONIZED MAGNESIUMS (I.E. FREE) as this one WILL laxate you.

I have used the SRT formula from jigsaw brand (It contains the BEST magnesium chelate, its from Albion):
http://www.jigsawhealth.com/supplements/magnesium/324

So just for a moment LET’S SUPPOSE mag oil absorbs well through your skin by just rubbing it in, so what? who cares? it leaves an oily feeling, it’s kinda sticky and cosmetically messy while leaving a white dandruff, it can sting minor cuts and has a heat sensation because it becomes a weak acid when in solution.

Besides, the recommendation is to apply in may body parts and vigorously rub for at least 3 minutes, so why bother? Why not just pop a pill? This way you are 100% SURE you are getting it fully in your blood stream, you will get lots and lots of FULL BODY benefits AND ALSO hopefully, you’ll get your follicle decalcification, with no laxation and no cosmetic mess.

If you must insist in using it topically and rubbing it in, dont spend more $ than necesary, use epsoms salts or buy magnesium chloride (mag “oil”) flakes and make your own “oil” for pennies on the buck.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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# 45 ]

March 28, 2010, 08:17 PM

Marcelo,

thanks for the product link. For $70 it looks like you can get 2 bottles @3 days/wk= ~8.5 months worth.

Is it possible to take too much magnesium? Why would happen if I took it internally 3x and topically 2x (scalp only) per week. Any adverse affects or risk of “overdosing”?

I’m not married to using topical mag oil (other than to relieve surface inflammation) so switching to internal could be the way to go if it helps decalcify.

Are there any synergistic supplements to take along with the mag oil, akin to taking iodine & selenium together (neither of which i take, just an example)

 

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# 46 ]

March 28, 2010, 10:22 PM

xyion1 - March 28, 2010, 08:17 PM

Marcelo,

thanks for the product link. For $70 it looks like you can get 2 bottles @3 days/wk= ~8.5 months worth.

Is it possible to take too much magnesium? Why would happen if I took it internally 3x and topically 2x (scalp only) per week. Any adverse affects or risk of “overdosing”?

I’m not married to using topical mag oil (other than to relieve surface inflammation) so switching to internal could be the way to go if it helps decalcify.

Are there any synergistic supplements to take along with the mag oil, akin to taking iodine & selenium together (neither of which i take, just an example)

Yes, it is pretty cheap. I would recommend the 3 day a week scheme for “regular” healthy people. For overstressed people you should take it 5 times a week.

Yes you can overdose, the first sign would be a bad laxation.

You can combine with : CoQ10, resveratrol, Acetly L Carnitine, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Omega 3 fatty acids,
Vit C and B Complex, Vit D3 and K2.

You hardly need anything except that.

Change your table salt, elimnate it FOREVER. Use isntead celtic salt and you’ll get 70 olligoelements/trace minerals.

You don’t need nothing else IMHO.

 

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# 47 ]

April 14, 2010, 04:27 PM

Does epsom salts + celtic salt also whiten teeth?

 

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# 48 ]

April 15, 2010, 02:00 PM

J87 - April 14, 2010, 04:27 PM

Does epsom salts + celtic salt also whiten teeth?

Not that I know!

 

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# 49 ]

April 16, 2010, 03:09 PM

marcelo - April 15, 2010, 02:00 PM

J87 - April 14, 2010, 04:27 PM

Does epsom salts + celtic salt also whiten teeth?

Not that I know!

What I mean by that is people say magnesium chloride is supposed to help whiten teeth, so they add it to toothpaste and mouthwash. So if epsom salts is basically the same thing it should probably work also.

 

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# 50 ]

April 16, 2010, 03:41 PM

Epsom salts are a little different from magnesium chloride (magnesium oil).

Magnesium Chloride Vs Magnesium Sulfate

from http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/magnesium.htm

Magnesium Chloride Vs Magnesium Sulfate   Magnesium chloride is a special form of magnesium that is natural to the sea as is magnesium sulfate, otherwise known as Epsom Salt. Both forms are used in emergency rooms to save lives but it is known that sulfate is more toxic and in transdermal application it’s less absorbable and retainable in the body then magnesium chloride is. The best form of magnesium supplementation obviously would be the most natural and that would be found where life began, in the sea. Magnesium chloride, though highly bioavaliable when taken orally, is idea when applied transdermally, either directly to the skin or when used in baths as Epsom Salts are traditionally used. The difference is remarkable between the two forms and is almost instantly noticeable. Magnesium chloride is easily assimilated and metabolized in the human body. Epsom salts are used by parents of children with autism because of the sulfate, which they are sometimes deficient in; sulfate is also crucial to the body and is wasted in the urine of autistic children. Magnesium sulfate, commonly known as Epsom salts, is rapidly excreted through the kidneys and therefore difficult to assimilate. This would explain in part why the effects from Epsom salt baths do not last long and why you need more magnesium sulfate in a bath than magnesium chloride to get similar results. 

According to Daniel Reid, author of The Tao of Detox, magnesium sulfate, commonly known as Epsom salts, is rapidly excreted through the kidneys and therefore difficult to assimilate. This would explain in part why the effects from Epsom salt baths do not last long and why you need more magnesium sulfate in a bath than magnesium chloride to get similar results. Magnesium chloride is easily assimilated and metabolized in the human body. Epsom salts are used by parents of children with autism because of the sulfate, which they are sometimes deficient in; sulfate is also crucial to the body and is wasted in the urine of autistic children.


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# 51 ]

April 16, 2010, 04:40 PM

CS-

Is there a PDF you have of the book about Magnesium?

 

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April 16, 2010, 06:58 PM

1….. - Yes, would you like a copy?


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# 53 ]

April 17, 2010, 12:39 PM

lots of info about magnesium = http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=2354.0

 

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# 54 ]

April 22, 2010, 11:12 PM

Immortal Hair - April 16, 2010, 03:41 PM

Epsom salts are a little different from magnesium chloride (magnesium oil).

Magnesium Chloride Vs Magnesium Sulfate

from http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/magnesium.htm

Magnesium Chloride Vs Magnesium Sulfate   Magnesium chloride is a special form of magnesium that is natural to the sea as is magnesium sulfate, otherwise known as Epsom Salt. Both forms are used in emergency rooms to save lives but it is known that sulfate is more toxic and in transdermal application it’s less absorbable and retainable in the body then magnesium chloride is. The best form of magnesium supplementation obviously would be the most natural and that would be found where life began, in the sea. Magnesium chloride, though highly bioavaliable when taken orally, is idea when applied transdermally, either directly to the skin or when used in baths as Epsom Salts are traditionally used. The difference is remarkable between the two forms and is almost instantly noticeable. Magnesium chloride is easily assimilated and metabolized in the human body. Epsom salts are used by parents of children with autism because of the sulfate, which they are sometimes deficient in; sulfate is also crucial to the body and is wasted in the urine of autistic children. Magnesium sulfate, commonly known as Epsom salts, is rapidly excreted through the kidneys and therefore difficult to assimilate. This would explain in part why the effects from Epsom salt baths do not last long and why you need more magnesium sulfate in a bath than magnesium chloride to get similar results. 

According to Daniel Reid, author of The Tao of Detox, magnesium sulfate, commonly known as Epsom salts, is rapidly excreted through the kidneys and therefore difficult to assimilate. This would explain in part why the effects from Epsom salt baths do not last long and why you need more magnesium sulfate in a bath than magnesium chloride to get similar results. Magnesium chloride is easily assimilated and metabolized in the human body. Epsom salts are used by parents of children with autism because of the sulfate, which they are sometimes deficient in; sulfate is also crucial to the body and is wasted in the urine of autistic children.

It’s a shame nobody actually takes the time to read what I write and keep basing their knowledge and rebuttals in epistemologically flawed sources, this reference says magnesium chloride is rapidly absorved through skin, but then again, where in the world is there a scientific proof or reference to this? the only references you will find are in mag oil sales websites.

Come on immortalhair, you are better than that! and I know it! basic chemistry and stoichiometry will tell you that magnesium sulfate (EPSOM) And magnesium oil (magnesium chloride) will be DISSOLVED in water or blood’s plasma completely into MAGNESIUM and the other ion from their pair! If you glue an apple and a pear, making a fruit pair,  and an apple and an orange, making another fruit pair, and then you take away the pear and the orange YOU ARE LEFT WITH THE ORIGINAL FRUIT! Theres no way one can be better than the other! And you are quoting a reference from a mag oil sales website that says Epsoms salts are rapidly eliminated by kidnets, well if that is true, then it is ALSO true for mag oil, cause magnesium doesnt travel as mag oil or as epsom salts in the blood to the kidneys, it travels as MAGNESIUM, ELEMENTAL, NASCENT. Please don’t tell me you don’t understand this!

Magnesium exists in nature in many isotopes, but only three are actually “long-lived”, and these isotopes ARE THE SAME! magnesium from epsom and magnesium from mag oil IS THE SAME!

In mag oil sales website they say their magnesium is better cause its natural, your wake up call is, EVERY ELEMENT IS NATURAL! there are also natural poisons that can kill you, being natural doesnt mean its magical or mystical.

Anyways, everything has a moment and I think I invested enough time on this topic already!

 

 

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# 55 ]

April 23, 2010, 11:39 PM

so is it safe to mix it with dmso/dmi?

 

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# 56 ]

April 26, 2010, 11:41 AM

Good points Marcelo!!

J87—

Don’t mix it, instead, first rub/massage some DMSO into the area that you intend on rubbing/massaging the Mag. Oil in.

 

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# 57 ]

July 29, 2010, 08:34 AM

I especially registered here to respond to Marcelo’s great information, i really enjoyed reading it all and even had a few laughs here and there!

Unfortunately i also bought into the transdermal oil scam.. ( which i now believe to be a scam..)
So i’ll save myself the stinging experience and switch over to soaking my feet in it regularly. (and eventually switch to soaking in epsom salt)

I do have some questions though of which i hope Marcelo could give his insight on.

You probably prefer chelated magnesium over the internal magnesium chloride(specially formulated for internal use) Which i also bought.. i’m gonna finish the bottle and then buy a chelated form, probable magnesium malate or orotate or taurate.
But i was wondering what your opinion is about the bio-availability of the “special, for internal use” magnesium chloride. Or should i better empty that bottle in my footbath also…


Thanks again for all the great information and insights Marcelo!


P.S. i bought the zechstein flakes and re-read the information on it and it only talks about adding it to baths..(huge volumes too.. about 1 - 1.5 kilogram per bath ( +- 9 Euro - 13 Euro..)
Also there isn’t a single reference about transdermal use or even about massaging with it.. Only the reseller talks about that, who is litterally repeating the magnesium for life “info”.

 

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# 58 ]

July 31, 2010, 07:25 PM

Pete - July 29, 2010, 08:34 AM

I especially registered here to respond to Marcelo’s great information, i really enjoyed reading it all and even had a few laughs here and there!

Unfortunately i also bought into the transdermal oil scam.. ( which i now believe to be a scam..)
So i’ll save myself the stinging experience and switch over to soaking my feet in it regularly. (and eventually switch to soaking in epsom salt)

I do have some questions though of which i hope Marcelo could give his insight on.

You probably prefer chelated magnesium over the internal magnesium chloride(specially formulated for internal use) Which i also bought.. i’m gonna finish the bottle and then buy a chelated form, probable magnesium malate or orotate or taurate.
But i was wondering what your opinion is about the bio-availability of the “special, for internal use” magnesium chloride. Or should i better empty that bottle in my footbath also…


Thanks again for all the great information and insights Marcelo!


P.S. i bought the zechstein flakes and re-read the information on it and it only talks about adding it to baths..(huge volumes too.. about 1 - 1.5 kilogram per bath ( +- 9 Euro - 13 Euro..)
Also there isn’t a single reference about transdermal use or even about massaging with it.. Only the reseller talks about that, who is litterally repeating the magnesium for life “info”.

Hi Pete, welcome aboard.

Magnesium Chloride Ion pair or Mgnesium Sulphate Ion pair will act EXACTLY the same when in solution. So it doesn’t matter if you use the zechstein flakes or the Epsom salts in solution, they will behave the same. Magnesium’s highly hygroscopic nataure makes it highly adsorptive and absorptive and thus makes it’s physical structure very “greasy”, but you will find the same using BOTH products.

About the oral magnesium I highly recommend this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Jigsaw-Magnesium-SRT-month-supply/dp/B000QJJ52Y/ref=sr_1_1?
ie=UTF8&s=hpc&qid=1280621978&sr=8-1

It’s price is also very fair as it has a very high quality.

Good luck!

 

 

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# 59 ]

August 03, 2010, 10:32 PM

Pete—

Curious, did you do blood tests to verify that the Magnesium Oil wasn’t working for you?

 

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# 60 ]

August 04, 2010, 10:22 AM

Nidhogge - August 03, 2010, 10:32 PM

Pete—

Curious, did you do blood tests to verify that the Magnesium Oil wasn’t working for you?

I think he didn’t mean to say mag oil doesn’t work or raise magnesium blood levels, but rather that in his own right and opinion, it was unnecesary to invest the extra cash in a good product that DOES work -however, not magically as purported-

Why? because the mag oil is heavily marketed and expensive, AND, you DO HAVE alternative choices! so you can have another product with THE SAME effects as THE MORE EXPENSIVE ONE, but 10 times as   cheap. Alternatvely if one is biased or convinced on the mag oil usage, and is also NOT convinced on the   epsoms’ then one could try cheap mag chloride flakes instead of epsom’s or liquid mag oil already on solution. IMHO that is a no brainer, but as always, anyone should make up their own mind and do the proper critical thinking to come up with reasonable conclusions about any idea or topic, and then take what resonates with each one, as also IMHO anything outside that constitutes faith, bias, magical thinking and epistemologically incorrectly funded reasoning.

Best regards!

 

 

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June 17, 2012, 06:34 PM

Stunning thread

 

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June 20, 2012, 12:33 AM

I too thought this was a fascinating idea Dr Marcelo put forth a couple of years ago. But the more I think of it, the less sense it makes. Here’s what I’m not understanding.

We know that Epson salts is magnesium sulfate.

We know that magnesium sulfate is used in medicine for women who are pregnant and suffering from preeclampsia….which is a glorified way of saying they are suffering from a severe form of high blood pressure brought on by pregnancy.

We know when you give mag sulfate IV it will drop your blood pressure significantly.

Therefore if Mag Sulfate was so easily absorbed by the skin people would pass out and die from a bath in Epson salts….because their blood pressure would drop significantly. This doesn’t happen. Why not?

The point is there may be more to the mag sulfate story than we are understanding. Apparently it isn’t absorbed as much as Dr Marcelo thinks. At least as far as I can see.

Dr Marcelo doesn’t seem to be posting here anymore. I would really be interested in his take on what I just said.

 

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August 12, 2012, 09:40 AM

Hey! speak of the devil ! lol

Hey Zix and people from worldhairloss, it’s been some time since I came here! I hope everyone is doing great in their hair preserving / re-growing journey!

The Zix Creator - June 20, 2012, 12:33 AM

I too thought this was a fascinating idea Dr Marcelo put forth a couple of years ago. But the more I think of it, the less sense it makes. Here’s what I’m not understanding.

We know that Epson salts is magnesium sulfate.

We know that magnesium sulfate is used in medicine for women who are pregnant and suffering from preeclampsia….which is a glorified way of saying they are suffering from a severe form of high blood pressure brought on by pregnancy.

We know when you give mag sulfate IV it will drop your blood pressure significantly.

Therefore if Mag Sulfate was so easily absorbed by the skin people would pass out and die from a bath in Epson salts….because their blood pressure would drop significantly. This doesn’t happen. Why not?

The point is there may be more to the mag sulfate story than we are understanding. Apparently it isn’t absorbed as much as Dr Marcelo thinks. At least as far as I can see.

Dr Marcelo doesn’t seem to be posting here anymore. I would really be interested in his take on what I just said.

I still think the same about this topic, but now I don’t bother to take prolonged baths or soakings in epsom salts, except if one wants to have the relaxing effects of a bath. I STILL take oral Mg supplementation, I would like to recommend Twin Lab’s Cellmins Mg caps over the Albion minerals from Jigzaw, Why? because JIGSAW is more expensive and both products work GREAT.

I only take 200mg a day, I have found through empirical trial and error that this dosage works for me in terms of optimal muscle contraction/relaxation (again, from an empirical pragmatic point of view as I don’t get any muscle cramps and I seldom get too sore after heavy weight lifting). Also, more than 400mg via oral route WILL laxate me, so thats my upper limit! Others may tolerate as much as 400mg a day -which is also great if one has the need for that higher dosage-

Zix, as for the IV Magnesium this is a different story altogether..

As Paul Chek put it, our food supply is only as healthy and nutrient - dense as our soils.
Contrary to popular belief, plants don’t “eat” DIRT! healthy organic soils are teeming with live organisms and are nutrient dense! but modern comercial farming practices don’t have time for that, so they have depleted our soils of Magnesium (and of many other nutrients) and crammed it with phosphorus and other agrochemicals to try and make crops grow without healthy nutrients, so our crops and veggies are Mg depleted and in turn the animals that are feeded these grains , grass etc are also deficient in these same nutrients.

This is why our modern westernized diets are deficient in many nutrients including magnesium. Even though our bodies are chronically depleted of Mg, at least in a “subclinical” way, we almost always manage to keep serum blood levels at about 1.5-2.5 mEq/1000 blood mL only by our diet alone.

Last time I had my blood analized I have 3.7mEq of Mg/L and I workout 6 days a week, run intervals, weight lifting etc and always feel great. I personaly think that the recommended “healthy” Blood Mg levels may be a bit low for the aforementioned reasons.

These levels are calculated by measuring the Mg blood concentration in 1000’s of otherwise “healthy” individuals around the world, but again, in my humble opinion these levels may be a bit low.

As for the IV Mg used in preeclamsia its a whole different story, here you want to obtain VERY HIGH blood Mg levels, for ONLY BRIEF periods of time. This is because Mg ions compete (and win) with Calcium for “contraction sites” at molecular sites in muscles thus producing muscle relaxation and inhibiting seizures and does the same thing in muscles of veins and arteries thus producing vasodilation and effectively lowering blood pressure.

PLEASE take notice that for this to occur, you need very high levels of blood Mg, as high as 4-8 mEq/L! for this the typical loading IV dosage is 2-4 GRAMS (I would need to orally ingest 20 to 40 of my TwinLabs Mg Caps TOGETHER at one sitting! lol) and even with this MASSIVE IV (or oral) dosage, I would, as a healthy individual with normal albumin levels most likely only develop a very nasty diarrhead with a lot of horrible abdominal cramps!

To actually die of respiratory paralysys one needs to have Mg blood levels of 13 mEq/L for that I would need maybe 10 grams of IV Mg or 50 TwinLabs Mg Caps at one sitting. Compare that to the topical route and you will quickly realize that your question is easily answered!

Of course the topical absorption route is neither as fast or so effecive as IV or Oral!

I never said topical Mag administration would have a tremendous effect in Mg blood levels, as to match IV administration levels, I just quoted the only article I could find on the topic which actually measured Mg levels in healthy individuals before and after prolonged whole body soaks in epsom salts and they noticed it produced an increase in Mg levels (very modest, of 10 ppm in avarage, and when soaking daily for 12 minutes for 7 days it produced an increase of about 35ppm in avarage).

In fact, I just quickly ran a search in pubmed for antihypertensive usage of oral Mg supps and almost all of them conclude it WORKS but has only a mild effect.

SO.. In conclusion, if one wishes to have a higher than usually recommended blood levels of Mg, one needs to either take DAILY -WHOLE BODY- 12 minutes baths in a bathtub FILLED with Mag oil or Epsom salts or ingest 200mg to 400mg of oral Mg dailyin capsules.

Compare the speed it takes for Mg levels to elevate by the different routes:
Topical: 12 minutes daily for 7 days
Oral: 45 minutes on an empty stomach in one sitting
IV: 20 seconds.

So you really CANNOT compare topical with IV! I hope that made sense and clarified your doubts!

Best regards,
Marcelo

 

 

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August 12, 2012, 07:04 PM

Hi doc. Good to hear from you again. Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense to me now. All the best!

 

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October 03, 2012, 02:58 AM

Hi to all,
I have an important update. I posted the same on an amazon review for a MgCl book.

If you are hypertensive or prone to it, obese, difficulty in controlling glucose or familiar tendency to Alzheimer’s disease then you may want to completely avoic MgCl and instead use regular oral chelated Magneisum (I now recommend / take Mg Malate = think Malic acid vs chronic fatigue syndrome / fybromialgia) or Epsom Salts. Here why:

You DO NOT need the chloride as you already are ingesting enough of it, besides it’s more related to hypertension than Sulphate, thus you’ll want to avoid it, why?

1) See, the Chloride ion from mag oil gets reabsorbed in the kidney’s loop of Henle, this in turns enhances reabsorption of water and thus blunts the natriureitc (sodium excretion) capacity of the kidneys this way leading to hypertension.

2) Renal hyperchloremia leads to vasoconstriction and a decline in glomerular filtration rate because of tubulo-glomerular feedback which increases renal afferent arteriolar resistance, decreases renal blood flow = hypertension.

3) sympathetic nervous activity is greater in experiments feeding rats more Chloride than in the control rats = more hypertension.

Why would you rather want to use the MgSO4 (Sulphate) contained in Epsom Salts?

1) There is increasing evidence that Sulfur deficiency in human tissues MAY contrinute to obesity, hypertension, metabolic syndrome and Alzheimer’s disease.

2) Modern commercial agricultural / farming practices, lack of culture rotation, excesive use of nitrogen based fertilizers all deplete soil’s rhizosphere from Sulfate, so our USUAL sulphur sources like leafy greens, eggs, milk, etc, may be lacking in sulphur content.

3) Sulfate is a common form of natural sulfur, which is contained in Epsom Salts, and the ONLY form that plants can absorb and use.

4) Sulphate oral supplementation (as MSM) has showed benefits (pubmed) in osteoarhtirits and allergies.

5) Contrary to popular belief, renal excretion of MgSO4 IS NOT by any means greater than renal excretion of MgCl (Mag Oil).

I hope I can benefit someone from this.

Best Regards,
Dr. Marcelo Vaquera

 

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October 04, 2012, 08:55 PM

Makes a lot of sense doc. Been a long time since I studied the “loop of Henle” so you kind of lost me a bit there. But quite simply anyone with high blood pressure should avoid chloride.

Seems like you also made a good case for taking the sulfate version of many vitamins. For example zinc sulfate.

What about people allergic to sulphonamides? Would this carry over into sulfate based vitamins? My guess would be no because I simply don’t hear of anyone having a problem with supplements like MSM or zinc sulfate. Hell in the nursing home where I work we used to hand out zinc sulfate to just about everyone. The only side effect is that their skin improved and their bedsores resolved.

 

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October 06, 2012, 05:16 PM

Hi Zix,

The Zix Creator - October 04, 2012, 08:55 PM

Makes a lot of sense doc. Been a long time since I studied the “loop of Henle” so you kind of lost me a bit there. But quite simply anyone with high blood pressure should avoid chloride.

Not only any hypertensive patient, but now after reading and reading, I consider that every person should avoid an EXCESS of chloride in their bodies, be it by diet or supplementation, prolonged soakings.

We already ingest ALOT of chloride in our modern diets. All processed foods have chloride and all “regular” commercial table salt has it too. We simply eat too much chloride. But specially hypertensive patients should avoid NOT ONLY SODIUM but chloride. So the usual “safe” salts found at walmart, etc like POTASSIUM CHLORIDE are now not good enough. Go for celtic / sea salt with ADDED iodine.

The Zix Creator - October 04, 2012, 08:55 PM

Seems like you also made a good case for taking the sulfate version of many vitamins. For example zinc sulfate.

You will always want the sulfate version over the synthetic oxide! I elaborate below.

The Zix Creator - October 04, 2012, 08:55 PM

What about people allergic to sulphonamides? Would this carry over into sulfate based vitamins? .

Not it will not.

-SULFUR: is an element such as Oxygen, not only NOT toxic but esssential, ALL aminoacids have sulfur bridges. without it you couldnt live.

-SULFATE: Sulfur is not found alone in nature -few elements actually are!-, but as S8 when in mineral rock form and also as the Sulfate ion (Its the same S, but surrounded by four Oxygen atoms) : SO4. You wont find solid anhydrous “dry” sulfate forms in nature because it has a high affinity for water, so you will find sulfate in water reserves, minerals and soil. Thus the “natural” forms of minerals are the salts of sodium, calcium, iron, magnesium, manganese, zinc, copper, potassium, boron, etc. Minerals in nature come from either rocks or soil.

All mineral content in water comes from stars nucleus, the earth crust, mainly from biotites or black mica. This then goes to rivers an aquifers then to soils then to plants/animal, food and ourselves.

In nature you can find mainly two mineral forms: Organic (sulfate, phosphate, ionic forms) and inorganic (Oxide, coming from mine ores, such as found in centrum and most commercial multivitamin bottles). Our bodies need the ORGANIC “version”, such as phosphate or sulphate. Nature did make the oxide minerals but not for us to ingest!. You need the soil based minerals.


-SULFITE (SO3) it is a preservative -I remember a patient from my plastic surgery practice that supposedly was allergic to LIDOCAINE, it turned out I discovered he was actually “allergic” -in fact, INTOLERANT, a different thing- to METABISULFITE (SO5), a common preservative that was NOT EVEN LISTED on the lidocaine flask label! had to call the company. Wine contains ALOT of sulfite. It causes mostly respiratory symptoms like hay fever, sneezing, runny nose, and asthma-like attacks.

-SULPHONAMIDES are antibiotics which contain sulfur compunds, these reactions are true allergies. They involve actual immunologic responses. There are other non antibiotic drugs which contain Sulfur compounds such as Celebrex.

I now tell to my patients:

1) Almost all persons over 30 need oral supplementation of magnesium, preferably malate (added malic acid benefit), 400mg a day.

2) All persons deficient in Magnesium may also be defficient in Thiamine (B1) (We cannot produce Thiamine it in our bodies, so we must ingest foods rich in it like yeast derivatives, pork, grains WHOLE GRAINS CONTAIN 10 TIMES MORE THAN REFINED. If you avoid grains and pork then you may be defficient in this. Also SULPHITES -A common preservative, NOT SULFATE deactivate thiamine), and Magnesium is needed for Thiamine to be utilized by the cell’s internal enzymes.

2) If you prefer or want to also use a soothing transdermal bath/soak, it is advisable to AVOID magnesium chloride, instead use Epsom’s. You will want to avoid STILL MORE CHLORIDE as we already consume A LOT of CHLORIDE in our modern diets, more than evolutionary norms! Our main source is table salt -Sodium Chloride- (Which should be altogether avoided at all costs -many brands now contain FLUORIDE AS HIGH AS 600 ppm and either one of these two anti caking agents: Aluminosilicate (maybe dementia/alzheimer’s?) -If you are avoiding aluminum in your diet think about this- or sodium ferrocyanide -allergies, was FDA Approved to use for EXTERNAL use and now we ingest it) and all vegetables, specially tomatoes (Which you should avoid also if you have any joint pain or osteoarthritis (its a nightshade). Use instead Sea Salt or Celtic Salt preferably with ADDED IODINE, And remember almost all processed foods contain SODIUM CHLORIDE.

I will not elaborate more as I could go on and on forever about this , as this is a MAGNESIUM post and we are deviating from the topic, but the whole ACIDIC diet is something everyone here should get educated on!

4) We could all benefit from oral Sulphate supplementation (Try MSM 1000g caps twice a day) for the aforementioned reasons. Or eat alot of onions, garlic, and food rich in sulphur. Just remember that modern food sources have alot less sulphur compunds because of excessive use of nitrogen based fertilizers.

 

 

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October 06, 2012, 06:53 PM

I will not elaborate more as I could go on and on forever about this , as this is a MAGNESIUM post and we are deviating from the topic, but the whole ACIDIC diet is something everyone here should get educated on!

Another great post but the above begs for more of an explanation. I thought all the alternative medicine people are saying keeping the body alkaline was the healthiest way to proceed. Some even claim cancer cures with baking soda. In your experience is there anything to treating cancer by raising the PH of human tissue?

 

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October 06, 2012, 07:33 PM

Maybe I didnt write very clearly,  thats exactly my point, we need to keep our bodies more alkaline. Our modern diets are highly acidic, we should try to ALKALINISE our bodies to physiologic pH levels. High chloride levels will ACIDIFY. This is not a scam or bro science, or fearmongering. Anyone can go to pubmed/google, etc and do a search for chloride and pH levels.

And I dont treat cancer patients (except mild skin cancers like basocelular spinocelular) but mostly on the reconstruction process like flaps, skin grafs, etc. I dont research about oncological treatments either. My grasp is in chemistry, physics, biochemistry, nutrition and exercise physiology, besides obviously plastic surgery.

 

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October 06, 2012, 07:48 PM

OK Doc. Thanks!

 

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