The 30 Month Window

January 20th, 2010, 5:01 pm

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By Joe the Zix Creator

30 Month Window

I’ve been actively helping people with the condition of male pattern baldness for almost 10 years. In that time period I’ve talked with hundreds maybe even thousands of people who suffer from the condition. I’ve noticed that people who have recently begun losing their hair tend to benefit the most from treatment. This study would tend to explain why that is. Basically it demonstrates that once a hair follicle has stopped producing hair for more than 30 months, it can never be stimulated to do so. In short we need to intervene at the first signs of the condition.  I believe the conversion of testosterone to DHT essentially causes the physiological response of inflammation and then fibrosis. Once fibrosis has set in….the game is over. From a more practical stand point, the best case scenario would be to stop further hair loss and regress the condition back 30 months. If you’re hoping to do better than that, your efforts will end in disappointment.

Below is the study abstract.

Konstantinova N, Korotkii N.G, Sharova N, Barhunova E, Gaevski D. Nioxin Research Inc, AtlantaIrreversibility of hair follicle changes after 30 months of Androgenetic Alopecia.
, USA Moscow Medical University

We studied horizontal and vertical biopsy from 15 caucasian 24-41 year old males diagnosed with bitemporal recession Androgenetic Alopecia (AA) for 1.5 –18 years (average 7.4 years). All 15 biopsies were stained with H&E, Van Gieson and with other collagen specific stainings. 1. Eleven pts with AA longer than 3 years had perifollicular fibrosis - collagen fibers were compact and formed a small scar-like formation around each anagen hair follicle(HF). Two patients - 33 year old with 18 month AA and 23 year old with 20 month AA did not have these hair follicle changes. Two 26-year-old patients with 30 and 36 month AA respectively were found to have some not so severe collagen fiber changes. 2. Infundibulum of HF dilatated 124-192 mm and most of them covered with keratinazed plug lacking normal hair shaft growth. 3. Decreased number of hair follicles 1.75-2,45 per sq. mm from 3.5-5 per sq. mm in control group. 4. None of anagen HF was situated in subcutaneous fat. We showed a correlation between length of the AA and severity/ thickness of perifollicular fibrosis. The result of this study is that any treatment of AA is recommended to start earlier than 30 months from first signs of AA. This should prevent irreversible collagen changes associated with “fibrotic incapsulation” of most anagen HF in involved areas, which usually leads to loss of normal blood supply, innervation, and subsequent miniaturization and prevention of hair from normal cycling.

Below is the link to the abstract:

http://www.ehrs.org/conferenceabstracts/2001tokyo/researchabstracts/130-Konstantinova.htm

I‘ve posted this idea on various forums in the past few years and my belief usually get’s vehemently challenged. Many people don’t accept my belief as a medical fact. Therefore I’ve written this little article to open the debate and finally get to the bottom of this issue. Unlike a thread on a message board which will fall into obscurity within a few days, this article will remain for quite awhile. It will remain long enough for everyone to offer their thoughts and comments. I challenge any and all to prove me wrong. In fact I hope someone does prove me wrong! One of the best ways I tend to learn is when I state a belief and then someone who has superior knowledge comes along and proves me wrong.

Understanding the “30 month window of opportunity” has some advantages for the long time hair loss sufferer. Being armed with this knowledge can prevent you from wasting time and money attempting to regrow hair that can’t be regrown. Perhaps it will allow you to devote more effort in other areas that would be of better benefit to your self confidence. Getting in better physical shape could be one of them. Spending the money you would have wasted on hair loss treatments to buy a new wardrobe could be another.  Understanding the 30 month window can also prevent you from stopping an otherwise good treatment because you want to try something else that you believe might enable you to regrow all your lost hair.

Those that Argue against the Concept


I think it’s important to also understand the possible motivation behind those that try to argue against the 30 month rule. Some may be displaying a relatively common psychological condition know as “denial”. People often respond to a situation they consider terrible by denying the truth. This is a well know psychological condition that was advanced by Kuebler Ross in a book published in 1969 called Death And Dying. It described, in five discrete stages, a process by which people respond to tragedy or catastrophic loss. Although losing ones hair is far from a catastrophic loss, many people perceive it that way.

Another type of person that tends to argue against the 30 month rule is someone that has a vested interest in hair loss. In other words, they make money directly or indirectly from the sale of hair loss treatments. Obviously once a potential customer understands it is impossible to regrow hair lost more than 30 months ago he can no longer become a victim of over hyped treatments. Unfortunately it can be impossible to identify these people who are challenging the rule but I thought it was important that everyone realize these people do exist on hair loss related forums.

The third group are those individuals who legitimately believe the “30 month window” theory is wrong and might have a good reason for believing this.  Hopefully they will be willing to share this reason with all of us.

There are some who make the argument that fibrosis can be overcome with various compounds.  I don’t personally believe this but if these fibrotic capsules, which have entombed our follicles, could be resolved it would still leave some other hurdles we would have to overcome.

The first would be miniaturization. Follicles past the 30 month window are so microscopically small they are no longer capable of producing a terminal hair. In order for them to begin doing this they would have to grow bigger.  In order for them to grow bigger one would have to dramatically reduce DHT in the skin and blood. Otherwise the very same physiological factors that were responsible for causing the problem in the first place would begin again. But dramatically reducing DHT is virtually impossible. Furthermore, even if it were possible, the side effects would be so horrible you’d rather remain bald. Afterall some DHT is necessary. DHT has some positive things it does for all of us!

In summary the goal of this article is to try to lower expectations of any and all hair loss treatments. Keeping what hair you have left and maybe regrowing some is the best we can hope for. Trying to accomplish more than this is a waste of time and probably money. Furthermore the sooner we begin treatment the more precious hair we will be able to save.

-Joe The Zix Creator

Prefering to remain anonymous… on the net he is known simply as the “zix creator” and was the originator of the Zix Formulas more than 8 years ago. He has a website that deals with the subject that can be found here:

http://www.qdbd.com/hair_loss_treatment_1.htm

As an RN, Joe the Zix Creater does have some formal training in the medical field -although not directly applicable to the subject of treating male pattern baldness. However, he continues to have an avid interest in the subject and is always on the prowl for a better way to treat the balding condition. Being a bit of a pragmatist however, he is not interested in searching through thousands of studies to try something that should “theoretically” help, nor is he interested in overly time consuming or overly expensive hair loss regimens since few people stick to them.

Although not an expert and, by his admission, not always right… Joe the Zix Creator is one of the best consumer advocates currently on the net.


COMMENTS (63)


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Immortal Hair

Immortal Hair

Editor

January 20th, 2010, 10:40 PM

Joe the Zix Creator - Great article, I was looking forward to it!

We can only hope that this will be proven wrong, yet so far it seems that it will not.

DHT has a high affinity to cause calcification of the scalp, and once that process is initiated, it remains to be seen if it can be rectified. Also there comes a period in advanced hair loss where there is a permanent loss in follicle stem cells, that’s also a point of no return.


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Sebastianinlet

Member

January 20th, 2010, 11:04 PM

Not to contradict you, but I have seen some photos years ago at the U of Miami med school library, of *dramatic* regrowth attained in a 73 yo in Sweden who was slick Norwood 6 bald since age 30. He had been taking high doses of oral spironolactone for about 14 months for what I recall was an edemous heart condition. The photos were posted in a Swedish medical journal, and his hair went all the way back to a norwood 1-2. I’m certainly not suggesting that anyone use oral spiro, which due to health reasons, I wouldn’t give to my dog. This occurence though, inverts the notion that hair follicles somehow “die.” Very encouraging on many levels.
Your statements on fibrosis reinforce my need to take taurine in high doses on a continuous basis.

                                    Regards

Sebastianinlet

Member

January 20th, 2010, 11:07 PM

BTW-I’ll do my damnest to find the study.

OverMachoGrande

OverMachoGrande

Editor

January 20th, 2010, 11:54 PM

But after a decade of hearing stories like that, Sebastaininlet, it’s always *one* isolated study here and there.  The results never gets replicated in any other instances -which leads me to believe that the condition wasn’t ordinary MPB to begin with, or he had something different about him that we all don’t. [in which case we should dissect his body! lol…]

If we kept talking about this, people would start mentioning that one transvestite somewhere had a near full reversal after a sex change operation (I’m not kidding) -which I don’t believe for a second in the first place, but even if it was true… it’s still just one case.

It’s no fair. lol…  There still isn’t one thing that can reliably bring back a follicle after a certain period.  That’s why we are really hoping that this decalcification thing might help us.  Who knows!  Maybe it won’t, but one thing is for sure… none of us know for certain yet until we start trying it.

I don’t remember any sort of real proactive effort in the forums on that avenue.

-O.M.G.


Build your own Laser Helmet | Laser Brush | Laser Device at OverMachoGrande.com!  The internet’s first, best, and biggest consumer advocate site on laser therapy for hair loss!  It’s time to educate yourself about one of the greatest treatments in FORUM HISTORY…

Nidhogge

Nidhogge

Editor

January 21st, 2010, 01:11 AM

Joe, good article, however, I have mixed feelings on this topic.  I think that DHT can be leveled out with a holistic diet and supplemental regimen towards our hormone profiles.  Balancing out estrogens and increasing test. to reduce DHT.  From here, we can focus on decalcifying and reversing fibrosis in the follicles through Magnesium Oil, LLLT, and perhaps some internals.  Maybe I’m just an overly optimistic fool, but I’m hoping against hope that a thorough regimen can provide promise for us.

Sebastian, I do have to somewhat agree with OMG, as Spiro. works for some, but not all.  That tells me that the spiro. user’s particular condition that caused them to lose their hair in the first place, once treated with the drug, simply caused the hair to grow back in.  I’m not sure that’s the typical MPB that we’re accustomed to.

The Zix Creator

The Zix Creator

Editor

January 21st, 2010, 02:01 AM

Hi everybody. Here’s something else we might want to consider. As far as I can tell a hair follicle is known as an “organelle”. Meaning “tiny organ”. Although we have evidence that this organelle never really dies. (Don’t ask me for the study because I can’t find it!) It remains alive however that does not mean it can ever be stimulated to grow a terminal hair. When one suffers damage to an organ like the kidneys to the point where it no longer functions there is nothing that can be done. Why wouldn’t this hold true for the organelle called a hair follicle?

I believe the hair follicle is a miniature organ that has been damaged beyond the point where it can ever be repaired. So even if we find a way to overcome fibrosis, calcification etc. it is unlikely, in my opinion, we can ever undue the damage anyway. Some things are just not fixable.

But I still hope I’m wrong.

 

Nidhogge

Nidhogge

Editor

January 21st, 2010, 03:49 AM

One thing to consider though—when a kidney is damaged beyond use, what exactly is the damage?  Is it Fibrosis and Calcification?  If that’s the case, then theoretically the kidney could be revived through Laser Therapy to reduce the scarring and if there is calcification as well, then Magnesium Oil.  Granted, a Kidney is an essential organ to function, so that’s why I’m only positing this as a theory/idea.  A hair follicle, on the other hand, isn’t an organ(elle) that is essential to function, so time is something we have on our side to potentially reverse the damage.

Just thinking a bit…

The Zix Creator

The Zix Creator

Editor

January 21st, 2010, 04:47 AM

Hi Nid. Perhaps a better analogy would be to take a healthy kidney and gradually miniaturize it by tearing small bits of the tissue off until it was the size of a marble. Could this kidney ever be restored to normal function?

That’s what the ravages of DHT essentially do to the follicle. It is gradually attacked and pecked away until it’s size is so tiny it can no longer function.

But I still hope I’m wrong.

Sebastianinlet

Member

January 21st, 2010, 12:51 PM

The 73 yo in the study had long standing androgenetic alpoecia for 40+ years, his before picture had the symmetrical horseshoe fringe-the authors designated it as Androgenetic.

BaldbeGone

BaldbeGone

Member

January 21st, 2010, 12:55 PM

Hmmmm…What was the state of my hairline 30months ago? lol

So you can’t grow hair where you’ve been slick bald for more than 30 months? What if you have a slick bald spot, but you’ve only had it for, say 20months. Under this theory you could technically regrow all the lost hair there, but even that, I feel is asking for a lot, especially if it was a pretty covered decent patch of hair to begin with.

Furthermore I think, since we’re throwing ideas out there, what would be really effective in resurrecting hair follicles over the 30month mark would be a sort of microscopic laser (micro-photobiostimulation!), preferably a little stronger than 5mw that would directly target one single cell follicle and then once the oxygen levels have increased and blood flow to the scalp is increased, placing some missing link topical, be that mag oil or some probiotic or who knows what that we’ve yet to discover in a more micro-bioavailable form (Kind of like nano vitamins), in that single dead follicle pore or w.e. This kinda sounds like Hair Transplant because of the microscopes and individual manner you have to treat the hair, except, we could do this to every pore to see if it responds ON ITS OWN without manipulation and those that don’t we would do an actual FUT on those instead of wasting our time. Although we might be wasting our time doing what I just said lol——But this way we’d get the most dramatic coverage

^^^Highly theoretical and probably severely flawed
Sounds crazy lol


Sure, shit happens...but so does good shit!

Sebastianinlet

Member

January 21st, 2010, 01:00 PM

here’s the abstract


Bou-Abboud CF, Nemec F, Toffel F.

Department of Internal Medicine, University Medical Center of Southern Nevada, University of Nevada School of Medicine.

This 73-year-old white male has been bald since the age of 28. He developed nonA-nonB-induced liver cirrhosis and had been treated with spironolactone for the last 6 years. For the last 3 months, his hair had started to regrow over the scalp. This might be related to the antiandrogenic effect of spironolactone.

PMID: 1977262 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Sorry-his original condition was evidently cirrhosis. The photos in the journal were mind blowing. He was growing dense hair in the frontal hair line.

Sebastianinlet

Member

January 21st, 2010, 01:02 PM

I was also wrong about the time line-it was after 6 yrs of Spiro- nevertheless-regrowth after 45 yrs of being bald !!!

Sebastianinlet

Member

January 21st, 2010, 01:05 PM

Which bodes well for sustaining our regimes.

OverMachoGrande

OverMachoGrande

Editor

January 21st, 2010, 01:05 PM

Yeah, but the point we’re making is that this is isolated.  It just doesn’t happen with anyone but very few of these isolated cases.  You can’t replicate it in anyone else, therefore there is something different about these individuals.

I wish we could find out what was different about these cases, though.  What is different with them may actually hold the key for the rest of us!  I think it’s still too late for the majority of us, though…  I think it’s as simple as that the reason this guys hair grew back after the 30 month window was because it “could”.  The reason that 99.999% of the balding people’s hair doesn’t grow back after the 30 month window is because it “can’t”.


Build your own Laser Helmet | Laser Brush | Laser Device at OverMachoGrande.com!  The internet’s first, best, and biggest consumer advocate site on laser therapy for hair loss!  It’s time to educate yourself about one of the greatest treatments in FORUM HISTORY…

Sebastianinlet

Member

January 21st, 2010, 02:45 PM

I dunno- this guy, who had seemingly common and aggressive MPB at a young age *should* have dead follicles by anyone’s definition after 40 or so years. The fact he had any growth at all, let alone a return to a full head of hair , is ecouraging on many levels-not just the sustained use of a diuretic poison like Spiro.

Chore Boy

Chore Boy

Journalist

January 23rd, 2010, 12:00 AM

Excellent topic, Zix.

May I ask… what do you feel happens to miniaturized MPB follicles?  Do you feel that they “die” (as in no longer again being viable) or do you think that they may once again return to normal function?  What do you feel causes miniaturization? 

Also, would you agree that our dormant follicles (as the result of MPB) behave similarly to the various vellus follicles found around the face, i.e. color, size?

The Zix Creator

The Zix Creator

Editor

January 23rd, 2010, 07:22 AM

Hi Chore boy. Thanks for the kind words.

What causes miniaturization? Essentially I believe the ravages of DHT eat away at the follicles.

“Also, would you agree that our dormant follicles (as the result of MPB) behave similarly to the various vellus follicles found around the face, i.e. color, size?”

Sorry but I don’t really know the answer to that question.

Nidhogge

Nidhogge

Editor

January 23rd, 2010, 03:06 PM

“ravages of DHT”

I find that explanation to be a bit too simplistic.  DHT is just a hormone, and is one piece of the process in my view.  Inflammation is ultimately the culprit, because it leads to calcification.  And, this goes back to those with MPB having an inflammation reflex to Demodex mites and, wouldn’t you know, Demodex mites use our DHT for *their* hormones since they don’t have any of their own, and consume our sebum for sustenance, which causes our bodies to create more sebum than they otherwise would.

1.....

Member

January 23rd, 2010, 06:21 PM

How does the thyroid fit into the theory of inflammation and calcification?

Nidhogge

Nidhogge

Editor

January 23rd, 2010, 06:38 PM

Gosh, I think the thyroid deserves an article unto itself…any takers?  IH? wink

Chore Boy

Chore Boy

Journalist

January 23rd, 2010, 11:03 PM

What I mean is, I find it difficult to distinguish between lost hairline follicles and forehead vellus hairs that were unlikely lost to MPB.  To me, they all appear to have similar hair shafts, length, etc.  I don’t personally feel that miniaturized hairs are dead, rather, I’m wondering if they regressed as a protective mechanism to avoid apoptosis… hopefully, and not already apototic.  I feel these sporatic reports of long standing baldness being reversed may support my theory of it taking a certain viablity of cell for the body to initiate terminal hair growth.  I wouldn’t be surprised if the body sensed damage to the cells and as a protective mechanism, stopped the hair growth as to not metabolize and create ROS, subsequently resulting in additional DNA damage due to the fact that these cells/organs are already unable to manage stressors.

Immortal Hair

Immortal Hair

Editor

January 24th, 2010, 11:01 PM

Nidhogge - Intracranial Calcification is associated with hypothyroidism.

http://radiology.rsna.org/content/167/2/533.abstract

Have had a longstanding hypothesis that low thyroid function is the root cause of hair loss.

Properly determining hypothyroidism is far from an accurate science given the “gold standard” employed by the allopathic medical establishment.

Optimizing vitamin D is critical to prevent calcification and hypothyroidism, as are iodine levels.

There are a large variety of ways to invoke hypothyroidism, especially with regard to the liver.  Moreover, refined foods and additives added to such foods can induce hypothyroidism.

The modern American diet is loaded with poly-unsaturated oils and high fructose corn syrup, all which can cause metabolic syndrome and hypothyroidism, not to mention wheat and other grains.

Environmental pollutants, xenoestrogens, heavy metals, especially from the dentist can all promote hypothyroidism.

Once all burdens are sufficiently removed, and important nutrients are added, the body can rise from mitochondrial decay into a thriving force of energy and vitality.


_________________
http://www.immortalhair.org/mycurrentregimen.htm

Now available for consultation (hair and/or health)
http://www.immortalhair.org/consultation.htm

Nidhogge

Nidhogge

Editor

January 25th, 2010, 03:34 PM

[BLACKLISTED word/name/company removed automatically],

Interesting comment man.  I do think that folks lose hair for varying reasons, but I have a question for you…were you getting *complete* regrowth, or was it partial??

You may also want to check out the ImmortalHair regimen @ http://www.ImmmortalHair.org as a natural approach towards halting/reversing hair loss.  Even without the potential benefits for one’s hair, those supplements are golden for your overall health.

Immortal Hair

Immortal Hair

Editor

February 01st, 2010, 12:00 AM

There is hope for the future and the present:

http://www.sierrasciences.com/splash.html


_________________
http://www.immortalhair.org/mycurrentregimen.htm

Now available for consultation (hair and/or health)
http://www.immortalhair.org/consultation.htm

Nidhogge

Nidhogge

Editor

February 01st, 2010, 01:36 AM

Wow, Brian, great link!!  I just posted that up in the user-submitted links section…that is some incredible news.  I had no idea that telomerase research was coming along as well as it appears to be.

tonyj

Member

February 01st, 2010, 06:44 PM

What was the name of that company that is making the supplement Dr. Andrews was talking about?  The one you can slightly increase the telomeres in your cell. I missed the name of the company during the presentation.

Immortal Hair

Immortal Hair

Editor

February 01st, 2010, 06:54 PM

TA-65


_________________
http://www.immortalhair.org/mycurrentregimen.htm

Now available for consultation (hair and/or health)
http://www.immortalhair.org/consultation.htm

tonyj

Member

February 01st, 2010, 10:36 PM

Anywhere safe to buy this?  There are a lot of fly by night companies that are selling TA-65. And why does it cost so much anyway.  In the end, it’s just a root extract.

Nidhogge

Nidhogge

Editor

February 02nd, 2010, 01:03 AM

tonyj—

http://www.TAsciences.com is what the video linked to.  They are the patent-holder, and the only fully trustworthy source as a result.  It’s incredibly expensive, and the reason being, it’s not just astralagus that they’re selling you.  Check out this thread for more info. on ImmortalHair’s site:

http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/natural-hair-regrowth-forum-f1/hope-in-the-present-and-the-future-t2451.htm

tonyj

Member

February 02nd, 2010, 12:54 PM

As usual, only the rich can afford breakthrough treatments.  At least the ball is rolling now, and I guess we should expect a flood of therapies and supplements from “legitimate” research companies in the next 5 - 20 years.

The Zix Creator

The Zix Creator

Editor

February 04th, 2010, 05:51 AM

Sorry everyone! Inspite of everything posted I see no real reason to believe hair can be regrown past the 30 month window.

tonyj

Member

February 04th, 2010, 02:25 PM

What about that clinical trials Histogen performed in either Argentina or Honduras on men with MPB. The therapy demonstrated “new” hair growth in 84% of the subjects. I haven’t seen the papers on this therapy so what I don’t know about the clinical trials are the subjects.  Were the subjects specifically selected for recent hair loss? Or did these subjects have long term MPB?

http://www.biospace.com/news_story.aspx?NewsEntityId=151293

The Zix Creator

The Zix Creator

Editor

February 04th, 2010, 02:52 PM

Hi Tonyj. If they succeeded in generating new follicles that is definitely a step forward. However it is my belief that these new follicles will not fully mature before they are “eaten” by the ravages of DHT. It is my belief they will have the same genetic predisposition as the follicles that are already there that are miniturized and encapsulated in fibrosis.

In otherwords, being they are new and tiny, they will not be able to withstand much exposure to DHT and we do not have the ability to completely eliminate DHT.

Now if they succeeded in generating new follicles and these new follicles for some reason are resistent to DHT (like the ones on the back of our scalp) well then this could turn out to be a huge step forward.

Nidhogge

Nidhogge

Editor

February 04th, 2010, 03:53 PM

I personally feel that blaming DHT, a hormone like any other in our bodies that isn’t capable of causing inflammation on its own, is a mistake.  DHT doesn’t ravage…DHT is something that we need to live, just as we need estrogen and what-not.  It’s inflammation that is the end result of excessive DHT that causes the actual problem, and that is why laser helmets work for folks primarily—it’s a potent anti-inflammatory.  More and more recent studies have found incredibly strong links between Demodex being the prime culprits for this inflammation, as they do not have hormones of their own and require DHT to live (something that MPB’ers have no shortage of) and reproduce, and they consume our DHT-laden excessive sebum for sustenance.  Overpopulation leads to inflammation, which kills the mites and in turn hurts the follicle, causing calcium/phosphorous and scar tissue build-up.

The idea behind rebooting stem cells is that the hair will be literally rebooted as if you had baby hair and, over time, youth hair, and so forth.  So, the effects of excessive DHT (unless you’ve already dealt with it via proper diet and supplementation) wouldn’t be realized until possibly 18+ years after the stem cell rejuvenation treatment.

The Zix Creator

The Zix Creator

Editor

February 04th, 2010, 03:59 PM

Hi Nid

Does not DHT cause trauma to the follicle? So the body responds like with any injury with inflammatory mediators?

To me…..and I could be very wrong but anytime tissue is chronically inflammed it ends up resulting in fibrosis. So in my mind it’s first DHT that leads to inflammation and then the chronic inflammation leads to fibrosis.

I draw this conclusion from asthma. If you have a chronic inflammation of the lung tissue this eventually leads to “remodeling”. In short it leads to scarring which is a glorifed way of saying fibrosis.

18years? Very good point and I haven’t thought of it that way. You could be right. But what are DHT levels in the body of a baby? My guess is they have very low circulating DHT levels. So the follicle is in a fight that it can win. Sure some DHT is destroying the follicle but at the same time the follicles are able to grow anyway because the “positive” growth factors can overcome the “negative” growth factors.

Your thoughts?

Immortal Hair

Immortal Hair

Editor

February 04th, 2010, 04:39 PM

Based on all the research, I’m quite convinced that DHT is proportional to the level of oxidative stress in tissue.

Natural DHT inhibition involves either a natural oxidation reduction process, endogenously, or an exogenous phenolic and/or antioxidant catalyst reduction. In MPB, balding scalps have 30% less glutathione in circulation than non-balding scalps.

Metabolic diseases and/or states have run rampant with today’s processed foods and environmental exposure, and when foods with a high glycemic load are consumed on top of metabolic insufficiency, this induces Dickkopf-1, which is a protein gene up-regulated in balding scalps. Moreover, high glucose increases the expression of TGF-beta.

While DHT is known to exert its effects through either the transcription of target genes or through nongenomic mechanisms, such as signal transduction via ERK, Akt and phosphoinositide 3-kinase. Either pathway can compete, literally determining whether DHT becomes pro or anti-inflammatory.


_________________
http://www.immortalhair.org/mycurrentregimen.htm

Now available for consultation (hair and/or health)
http://www.immortalhair.org/consultation.htm

Nidhogge

Nidhogge

Editor

February 04th, 2010, 04:42 PM

Zix,

I agree, and thought of that as well regarding the levels of DHT in the baby vs. what we have now.  I’m just going off of memory from some discussions on the topic in forums a year ago or so, but I *believe* they were insinuating that the new hair would be DHT-resistant, though I’m not sure how they would know to be honest… :/

I agree on inflammation/scarring, I just feel that DHT is one step of the process that leads to the inflammation, but not the last step in the process that results in inflammatory action.

The Zix Creator

The Zix Creator

Editor

February 04th, 2010, 05:06 PM

Hi Nid.

OK seems like we’re in agreemnet so let me make this point but let’s use a different condition instead of hair loss.

Let’s start with a patient that has asthma and it is determined the asthma is a result of the pollen from deciduous trees. In otherwords that particular allergen is causing the asthma.

We can medicate them. We can give them vitamins and do whatever we may to help improve their condition. We can give them steroids both oral and inhaled. These things may help with the condition…..I’m not denying that. But they will never help as much as moving to Alaska where there are no deciduous trees. Without the presence of the offending allergan you cure the asthma.

You see the further down the chain of reaction you move the less effective the treatment will be. That is why I still believe we should concentrate our efforts at doing anything we can do to reduce DHT. DHT seems to be the “offending allergen”. I’m not saying that addressing inflammation may not be helpful….but it will never be as helpful as reducing DHT in the first place.

Unfortunately when you reduce DHT throughout the body you will have systemic side effects. But if you can accomplish the same thing topically you will see almost no side effects at all.

Once again let me use asthma as an example. A person with chronic asthma can take oral steroids and they will help with the condition….but take them on a long term basis and your body will go to hell in a handbasket due to the side effects. So instead of taking the steroids orally they inhale them. Now we deliver to the target cells (lung tissue) the same concentration of the steroid to the lung tissue as with the oral steroid however we have probably used 1/50 of the medication in an oral does. Therefore the side effects are dramatically less.

In my humble opinion our efforts should first and foremost be a good topical treatment.

Thanks for allowing me to rant and state something totally irrelevent to what the hell we were talking about in the first place! The truth be known I had a tooth pulled yesterday and the dentist gave me a prescription for tylenol with codeine! Needless to say I’m taking more than the recommened dose and am feeling very happy and very F-cked up. LOL!

The Zix Creator

The Zix Creator

Editor

February 04th, 2010, 05:16 PM

Hi immortal. By the way you’ve really added some great articles of late! Keep up the good work!

“Based on all the research, I’m quite convinced that DHT is proportional to the level of oxidative stress in tissue.”

Seems to me if that were true all we would need to test your theory is take a struggling follicle (one still producing a half decent terminal hair) and transplant it to the back of the scalp. Since one doesn’t lose hair back there, there wouldn’t be any oxidative stress. It should recover and grow a full length terminal hair.

But we already know this doesn’t work. We also know we can take a follicle from the back of the head and transplant it to an area with high oxidative stress as you put it at the front and it will grow for the rest of a person’t life.

I guess I’m not understanding you cause I know you already know this. It must be the codeine!

The Zix Creator

The Zix Creator

Editor

February 04th, 2010, 05:23 PM

Perhaps you’re talking about the oxidative stress within the follicle.

Immortal Hair

Immortal Hair

Editor

February 04th, 2010, 05:32 PM

Zix Creator - Thanks for the comments.

Well, here’s the problem with transplanted hair. If the donor area (from a balding area) is used, the hair germ itself contains growth inhibitors.  Conversely, if a hair follicle is taken from a non-balding donor, the life cycle of that hair will do well under a new host tissue with oxidative stress, since it doesn’t contain growth inhibitors.

I think of high DHT is a symptom of low testosterone (except for young men with very low SHBG levels). Low testosterone is a result of insulin resistance, which also occurs transiently in adolescence.

insulin resistance sets the stage for testosterone depletion and higher estrogen. The body responds by converting some of its unbound testosterone into DHT to compensate.

When glucose and insulin levels are brought down, less DHT is converted from testosterone.


_________________
http://www.immortalhair.org/mycurrentregimen.htm

Now available for consultation (hair and/or health)
http://www.immortalhair.org/consultation.htm

Immortal Hair

Immortal Hair

Editor

February 04th, 2010, 05:35 PM

One thing I will add, which is in great spirit of your thread title is that not treating hair loss for say 30 months under high DHT conditions is ripe for calcification, fibrosis or other horrible consequence, such as narrowing of the endothelium that supports the hair shaft.


_________________
http://www.immortalhair.org/mycurrentregimen.htm

Now available for consultation (hair and/or health)
http://www.immortalhair.org/consultation.htm

The Zix Creator

The Zix Creator

Editor

February 04th, 2010, 05:45 PM

First I like to say I didn’t think you would ever talk to me again after I confided to everyone I took a prescription medicine containing codeine! I know how you hate prescriprion drugs! LOL! Just kidding.

Secondly you were the guy that originally dug up the study used in the 30 month window article.

Yes I understand now what you were talking about and my comment about transplanted hair was based on thinking you were talking about oxidative stress in the tissue surrounding the follicle. I realize now this is not what you meant.

Here’s something I want to run by you. Beta sitosterol used to be one of your top 6 if I remember. Why did you take this off the list or drop it down? Was it side effects?

1.....

Member

February 04th, 2010, 05:52 PM

IH- Just curious, how do we increase glutathione levels?

Nid- Does the protocol D3, k2, mag, ACV remove phosphorous along with the calcium?

Immortal Hair

Immortal Hair

Editor

February 04th, 2010, 06:14 PM

Zix Creator - Beta Sitosterol to me is now a “relic,” however I used it for several years up to dropping it all together. 

There’s two reasons why I got rid of it.

(1) It was like taking a drug in a way—it acts by inhibiting 5-alpha reductase and inhibiting cholesterol absorption in the gut. At high doses, it can cause most of the same effects that finasteride can, such as depression, poor libido, etc. I didn’t notice the effects so much until I took enough to realize it negatively impacted me. Not only that, but others reported sides as well.

(2) New research, collectively pointed towards an entirely different set of influences over DHT, so inhibiting its conversion using high dose phytosterols was more like treating the symptom instead of the cause. This was a real turning point in my approach. 


_________________
http://www.immortalhair.org/mycurrentregimen.htm

Now available for consultation (hair and/or health)
http://www.immortalhair.org/consultation.htm

Immortal Hair

Immortal Hair

Editor

February 04th, 2010, 06:18 PM

1….. - How to increase glutathione?

There’s a number of ways, but here are the best ways in my opinion.

Selenium intake
Stabilized R-Lipoic acid
NAC (N-Acetyl Cysteine)
Sulforaphane
Silymarin (Milk Thistle)

 


_________________
http://www.immortalhair.org/mycurrentregimen.htm

Now available for consultation (hair and/or health)
http://www.immortalhair.org/consultation.htm

Nidhogge

Nidhogge

Editor

February 04th, 2010, 06:20 PM

1…

Taking 500mg of NAC per meal has been found to be a fantastic way to boost your body’s natural production of glutathione.

Unfortunately, I have no idea on the phosphorous…I haven’t seen any evidence either way, seems that calficication is always what is discussed in studies with a nod to phosphorous.  At least the stuff that I’ve combed through so far. :/

Joe—

That analogy is comparing the tree that is causing the allergy to DHT.  The thing is, the tree is an external factor so if you remove it, then yes, the allergic reaction ceases.  However, if you remove DHT, I’m not even sure that it’s possible to survive or, at the very least, you’d be mighty unhealthy.

DHT is somewhere in the middle of the process, but it’s not at the root.  As IH discussed, insulin resistance through consumption of high glycemic index foods (far too common in our diets) and imbalanced estrogens can lead to excess production of DHT to compensate for low testosterone due to the hormonal imbalance in our bodies.  If we focus on just trying to reduce DHT via a DHT-blocker, there is no way to say how much DHT we need reduced.  The best thing we can do is balance our hormonal profile through natural means and rely on our body to normalize our DHT levels once we’ve normalized our estrogens (if you’re over 30, Pueraria Mirifica works great for this, and has been used for centuries in its native northern Thailand for MPB, keeping/restoring hair color, etc.).  It may work well under 30 as well, but not in our experiences thus far, and IH has delved into why this may be a bit on his forum in the past.

The Zix Creator

The Zix Creator

Editor

February 04th, 2010, 06:23 PM

But what if you spent some time individualizing the dose? What if you approached it differently? What if you started with a very low dose and gradually over many months increased it. Then as soon as you begin to see sides you stop for awhile and then restart at the last dose where you had no side effects?

Yes I agree it does work like the drug propecia. But what if an individual took a low enough dose to not cause side effects? Only enough to take the “edge” off systemic DHT? Then combine this with a good topical. Your thoughts?

Nidhogge

Nidhogge

Editor

February 05th, 2010, 12:53 AM

Zix—

I think the problem with that is that it could take quite a few years of experimentation since hair cycles so slowly (6 months to a year), not to mention potential long-term side effects from inhibition of DHT that you wouldn’t be aware of until it is too late.  That’s just my take on it though.  Hormones are definitely a delicate thing to mess with, knowing first-hand their effects from tinkering with prohormones, finasteride, and dutasteride over the years… :/

Nidhogge

Nidhogge

Editor

February 05th, 2010, 05:30 AM

Zix,

I definitely do understand what you’re saying, just to be clear about it all.  I just feel that DHT is the symptom, and that by using a DHT-blocker, we’d be attempting to resolve the problem by trying to neutralize the symptom (in this case, excessive DHT production). 

As IH pointed out, evidence points to excessive DHT as being the result of low testosterone and insulin resistance, both of which are major problems that impact far more than hair loss.  I feel that if we address those and get them in order, that DHT will naturally reduce itself to levels that won’t trigger the inflammation process.

It would seem that what you’re suggesting could be done with Propecia just as much as with Beta-Sis, but one big question mark remaining is what will happen in the long term to your well-being by attempting to partially and unpredictably inhibit a hormone in your body?  Plus, no solid protocol could be developed for everyone’s benefit since X person may need to inhibit 1.2%, the other maybe 3%, the other maybe .08%, etc…

The Zix Creator

The Zix Creator

Editor

February 06th, 2010, 08:03 PM

[BLACKLISTED word/name/company removed automatically] you bring up a very good point. That said,  bullsh-t is used by both sides…..from Doctors, FDA approved meds, treatments etc. and from supplement sellers. We have no choice but to try to weed through it. But I will say this about Immortal, nid etc…..these guys definitely believe in their theory and approach. So I believe their opinions are worth listening to.

Nidhogge

Nidhogge

Editor

February 06th, 2010, 08:51 PM

And the FDA is an authority onnnn…what?  Sorry, but a group of ex-pharmaceutical sales rep serving in an unelected bureaucracy carry as much clout as an eight-year old teaching linguistics classes.  A doctor I know deals with these idiots directly as a part of his living, and knows them all quite well…idiots.

That said, quite a few supplement companies are shit.  That’s why we do our research and due diligence.

The Zix Creator

The Zix Creator

Editor

February 06th, 2010, 09:40 PM

Hi Nid. As you probably already know I’m in the “conventional” medical profession. I see what goes on day in and day out. For many years now, I’ve believed that an effective protocol for treating male pattern baldness is not going to come from the “conventional” side. Instead it’s gonna come from the “unconventional” side.

But again from the “unconventional” side we are going to have to weed through a lot of bullsh-t. In my opinion we’re already there. We just need to pull it all together into one protocol. All we need to do is come up with a couple of good shampoos, a good topical, a laser device and some good supplements and presto….no one loses their hair anymore that follows this protocol.

I think these things already exist right now. We just have to clarify and simply things for people. We need to say to people “do exactly this and nothing else”. But before we can do this we need to earn their trust.

But on the “simplified” side I still believe the “supplement guys” like yourself should try to come up with a multiple or combination product if possible. Compliance is a huge issue and the less pills we need to get people to swallow everyday the more compliant they’ll tend to be and the more successful the protocol will be.

Nidhogge

Nidhogge

Editor

February 06th, 2010, 09:47 PM

Zix—

I 100% agree.  And, trust me…I’ve been busting my ass off on simplifying IH’s formulation.  We’ve both been in communication, I have a spreadsheet of current costs laid out that I’ve sourced, and am looking to cut every corner possible.  Actually have to drop you an e-mail on helping me source some stuff as well! smile

1.....

Member

February 07th, 2010, 04:34 AM

[BLACKLISTED word/name/company removed automatically]- hairloss is mostly about stopping it. Your not going to get amazing results with anything these days. Lasers are the best treatment on the market today.

Nidhogge

Nidhogge

Editor

February 07th, 2010, 12:40 PM

What 1…. said.  I think, at best, supplements can get you some thickening by reducing inflammation.

OverMachoGrande

OverMachoGrande

Editor

February 07th, 2010, 03:10 PM

I changed it so 250 comments can appear on one page.  Maybe that’s overkill, but I personally hate having to go to “page 2”, etc.

Also, I realize that there are problems with UNSUBSCRIBING to comments via email!  I’ll try to take care of that in the next couple of days -and I’ll add an subscribe/unsubscribe button to the top of the article, too.

I’m almost caught up with helmets and emails, too, so I’ll be able to be posting more and contributing some of the best original news multimedia content the hair loss world has ever see!  lol…

Thank you for bearing with the “beta stage” of the site! lol…


Build your own Laser Helmet | Laser Brush | Laser Device at OverMachoGrande.com!  The internet’s first, best, and biggest consumer advocate site on laser therapy for hair loss!  It’s time to educate yourself about one of the greatest treatments in FORUM HISTORY…

The Zix Creator

The Zix Creator

Editor

February 07th, 2010, 04:53 PM

Yes Nid, agreed. But stopping further hair loss should be the goal. Not regrowing a significant amount. This just sets people up for disappointment.

Nidhogge

Nidhogge

Editor

February 07th, 2010, 05:26 PM

I agree, in fact with HairGen, that is what I told PP the goal is…I said if it causes thickening and regrowth, great, but the goal here is to halt hair loss.  That’s a realistic goal in my view.

The Zix Creator

The Zix Creator

Editor

February 07th, 2010, 06:23 PM

Hell yea. If you take a kid 25 years old who is just starting to lose his hair and all you can succeed in doing is stop further loss he can get a minor hair transplant and be done with it

Early intervention, a good protocol and strict compliance is the answer. You know nid…we’re the first website that is really telling people the honest truth.

BaldbeGone

BaldbeGone

Member

February 07th, 2010, 11:45 PM

That sounds really smart actually…Hair Loss could become something like brushing your teeth where (if caught early enough) it would just be like a protocol you did daily and it would halt all further hair loss….and if you waited just a little too long before you realized you had lost a substantial amount of hair you could get some work done like Zix said and you’d be set.


btw Saaaaaaaaaaaaints baby lets goooooo! WHO DAT!


Sure, shit happens...but so does good shit!

Nidhogge

Nidhogge

Editor

February 08th, 2010, 04:51 AM

If only I started losing my hair at 25…haha.  But yea, you’re absolutely right man.  Other sites out there are driven by profit and advertisements for the most part, and it’s good to be able to have a platform to spread information, research, and personal experience with everyone out there!

Bald—

Don’t want to hear about the Saints!! haha.  raspberry

The Zix Creator

The Zix Creator

Editor

February 08th, 2010, 06:06 AM

Baldbegone…that’s the whole reason for the 30 month window article. We need to lower people’s expectations and get them to focus on keeping what hair they have left and maybe regrow alittle.

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